Home Poker and Cops.... Legal Issues here

[Caesars IN Kevin]

Got a question to some of you that may either have experience or actually done anything like this. Of course where I live it is illegal for gambling in home , like most places (ridiculous law, but you know how that goes). The question I am asking is this. On wednesday's I play Poker at a bak room bar that seats around 50 players into the tourny with unlimited rebuys and 40$ buyin. The pot is usually over 1400 to the winner.

When you come in, they have you sign a paper that states the this game no way pays out winnings and that it is all in fun and a keepsake it basically the prize to the winner. It also states all money collected goes toward supplies, food, drinks, etc. Basically at the end of the tourny, the tourny director errr... bar owner hands the winner like a stuffed animal as a prize, then proceeds to tell him he would like to buy it back from the guy, you know, the winnings....

I don't know how this all works out in the end if its ever busted up, but I was wondering if anyone else has done anything similar to this or even has any comment on doing this and how to word something like this.

[obeythekitten]

you are a complete [censored] moron. seriously.

*NEWSFLASH* - there is no loophole that would make an illegal home game suddenly legal magically.

how retarded do you think the police are?

[TenPercenter]

[ QUOTE ]
you are a complete [censored] moron. seriously.

*NEWSFLASH* - there is no loophole that would make an illegal home game suddenly legal magically.

how retarded do you think the police are?

[/ QUOTE ]

Damm, rip the guy a new one why don't you. /images/graemlins/smile.gif How can you assume that everyone (or is just poker players?) knows all about gambling laws or else they are complete morons? I certainly don't know everything (or much at all) about gambling laws.

Ten

[TenPercenter]

I don't know much about gambling laws, especially in a different state. But common sense says that you probably don't need to go through all the rigamarole that guy went through if you are just playing at home. If you need to know if that system works because you want to run a card room for profit, then you surely shouldn't be posting the question online. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Ten

[The Armchair]

Stanard disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, so this ain't legal advice. If you want a legal opinion, call an attorney.

My take:
a) You're still guilty of violating whatever the anti-gambling statute is.
b) You may very well be guilty of money laundering.
c) You may also be guilty of fraud, as the non-winners of the tournament signed something that says that "this game no way pays out winning" but it, indeed, did.
d) Given all this, you may violate some racketeering law as well.
e) If I were a zealous DA, and I found out about this, I would [i]so make an example out of you.

You got to know when to hold'em,
know when to fold'em
know when to walk away,
and in this case,
know when to run.

[RPMick]

http://www.gambling-law-us.com/

-Ryan

[ky70]

[ QUOTE ]
you are a complete [censored] moron. seriously.

*NEWSFLASH* - there is no loophole that would make an illegal home game suddenly legal magically.

how retarded do you think the police are?

[/ QUOTE ]

Great reply by you...you definitely have this "brotherhood" thing figured out. Next chance you get, be sure to pat yourself on the back.

[PinataUT]

EDIT: click on the user id then click 'ignore posts from this user.' That's what I did.

EDIT2: lol - I know elite and he, sir, is no elite. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Slow Play Ray]

[ QUOTE ]
Is there a way for me to killfile OTK?

Tired of the bitterness. Life's a little short.

[/ QUOTE ]

haha, welcome to 2+2, where bitterness and elitist sarcasm abound!

[RackOChips]

Here is a blurb from my state:

B. "bet" means a bargain in which the parties agree that, dependent upon chance, even though accompanied by some skill, one stands to win or lose anything of value specified in the agreement. A bet does not include:

(1) bona fide business transactions that are valid under the law of contracts, including:

(a) contracts for the purchase or sale, at a future date, of securities or other commodities; and

(b) agreements to compensate for loss caused by the happening of the chance, including contracts for indemnity or guaranty and life or health and accident insurance;

(2) offers of purses, prizes or premiums to the actual contestants in any bona fide contest for the determination of skill, speed, strength or endurance or to the bona fide owners of animals or vehicles entered in such contest;


Does (2) sound like tournaments may in fact be legal in my state since a tournament can be defined as a bona fide contest?

[coyote]

[ QUOTE ]
Here is a blurb from my state:

(2) offers of purses, prizes or premiums to the actual contestants in any bona fide contest for the determination of skill, speed, strength or endurance or to the bona fide owners of animals or vehicles entered in such contest;


Does (2) sound like tournaments may in fact be legal in my state since a tournament can be defined as a bona fide contest?

[/ QUOTE ]

To my knowledge, the whole issue generally is that the authorities/law/powersthatbe do not consider poker a game of skill. They say it is a game of chance and not subject to that law.

[RunDownHouse]

The first response may have been a bit harsh, but harsh responses aren't always uncalled for.

In this case, the point is: if it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, and smells like a duck... its probably illegal. Leave finding legal loopholes up to a professional. If you're relying on some idiot bartender to keep you out of trouble, you're either an idiot yourself or naive.

[fishfeet]

Heres a story that is somewhat similar... a loophole around scalping laws.

A few years back the Carolina Hurricanes were in the NHL playoffs and made it to the Stanley cup.
Tickets were sold out for the finals in mere minutes. Scalpers hit eBay. Now, NC has scalping laws that say you cant sell for some set % above the ticket price (i want to say 10%, but not positive)
To get around this, these scaplers were selling hats, tshirts, ect for $200-$2000 dollars.
You were buying the merchandise and were 'given for free' the tickets.
As far as I learned, this is a loophole.
Im sure eBay would have shut anything illegal down.
I beleive the only way for the loophole to be closed is for someone to be prosicuted, a good lawyer gets them off, and the laws are changed.

So this situation is similar.
You give $ to the owner to cover the costs of 'food, ect'.
They play a friendly game of poker to win a cheap prize.
In the end, the owner offers to buy back the cheap prize for a lot of money.
Perhaps that prize had some kind of real value to the owner and he was willing to pay a lot for it.

A good lawyer, I beleive, would be able to argue this loophole.
Now, gambling laws could have a clause in it to cover a situation like this... that I dont know.

[JKDStudent]

It depends on your state. For instance, in Jersey, there's nothing wrong with a home game as long as NO MONEY goes towards the house. For instance, if everyone puts in $22 for a tournament and $2 goes to food and stuff, that would not be legal. Even though everyone is eating the food, it's still "going to the house". Now if everyone put in their $20 and then pitched in seperately for food, or each person brought something, that's different.

Depends on your state.

[Slacker13]

Are you really that worried about your home game being busted? It doesn't even enter my mind when I host games. You worry too much.
Just don't have money sitting on the table.
The bar owner in the story was just adding some extra protective measures as his liquor license is at jeopardy, it's not protecting or shielding him from getting busted.

[elmitchbo]

i think the best point brought up was if selling a stuffed animal for $1400 crosses the line into money laundering. i would guess that it does.

[RyanTaylor]

First off, you are a moron for thinking that your current method of gambling would be legal. If you are afraid of the legal ramifications of public gambling, then don't do it.

In my case, in Ohio, gambling in the home is legal unless money goes to the house. Gambling in public is illegal unless money goes to charity. Since there is no set percentage of the total pot that has to go to charity, public tournaments and card rooms can easily be run as long as some small amount of the pot is a charitable donation.

[elmitchbo]

a few places here in georgia make you donate a can of food to play... i assume they do that to fit into the charity loophole.

[obeythekitten]

as others mentioned, i would be willing to wager my entire bankroll that if you DID get caught, your attempt to try and be clever and circumvent the law would encourage the prosecutor to slam you with everything he could possibly think of and make an example of you.

[Caruso329]

Hey elmitchbo, where in Georgia are you?

[smoore]

Here in colorado we're allowed to gamble at home as long as no one is making a living and the house doesn't take any money for anything.

We're allowed to gamble in public as long as no one is making a living, the organizers/house doesn't take any money and... *it's not a licensed alcohol establishment*. I guess you could sell booze at a game that met these requirements but then you're violating the booze laws which have much stiffer penalties than the gambling laws.

We have bar freerolls that the cops even come watch for a couple hands while they do thier rounds, but the cash buyin (no rake) game was told to shut down.

[lighterjobs]

this all sounds pretty illegal but the teddy bear thing is pretty funny.

[Hardmix]

For the most part nobody cares about poker games in Ga or the country for that matter. 1 of 3 events need to take place to get on the radar; game info drops right under a greenhorn D.A. nose looking for something to do, player gets busted and whines about it or the game advertises blatantly. Other than that play on a have fun the authorities have many more important issues to deal with than us!

[elmitchbo]

i'm in athens... you?