Standardized testing in our schools.

[Kaz The Original]

The main problem I have with standardized testing of students in order to judge the success of the teachers is that teaching is such a subjective thing.

I am a fan of the socratic method, asking questions in order to get people to examine for themselves what is right and wrong, true and false. I believe the primary focus of our school system should not be to teach facts, or knowledge, but to teach people how to debate, how to research, how to anyalze and how to critically determine whether things are correct or incorrect.

I think standardized testing would be woefully inadequate in handling this sort of education.

So, should this be what we would want our education system to be? Is this what our education system does at the moment? Does standardized testing fail in this (our?) system?

[zaxx19]

I think standardized testing would be woefully inadequate in handling this sort of education.


Wow you actually couldnt be less correct here.

Its grades that should be demphasized and standardized tests that emphasize pattern recognition, cross identification of traits, and 2nd and 3rd stage analysis of issues, that should be most important.

Grades(in my experience) are mostly the product of organization, motivation, and regard for authority. Any nimrod can get good grades in school and many at mine did ...in fact the valedictorian at my school(and a Harvard undergrad as we speak) posed this ? on the last day of our AP US history class as a HS Jr.: "What is Communism?" At the time she was enrolled in no less than 5 AP classes and had a 4.0 GPA> /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
I believe the primary focus of our school system should not be to teach facts, or knowledge, but to teach people how to debate, how to research, how to anyalze and how to critically determine whether things are correct or incorrect.

[/ QUOTE ]
Would you mind telling me how people are supposed to debate, research, analyze, or critically determine anything without knowing any facts whatsoever?

And disagree with your reasoning of the purpose of school. pre-college schooling is really about giving kids the basic facts and fundamentals for what comes next. Once in college, people broaden somewhat, depending on whether they're getting a liberal arts foundation. They're further taught to do many of the things you suggest. But you also specialize to better qualify yourself for a job. If the purpose of school was only to gather as much knowledge as you could, then you might have a point. But that's not what school's purpose is, IMO. A school's purpose is to prepare a kid for the workplace they'll eventually enter. And while teaching gets more subjective as you progress, in the early stages (middle school or so) it is more about basic fundamental stuff like math, science, and reading. Now the U.S. spends the most per student than any other country in the world yet we don't even rank within the top ten in either of those categories. Do you see a problem here? How long must taxpayers pay more and more for less and less?

[zaxx19]

A school's purpose is to prepare a kid for the workplace they'll eventually enter.

???? Im desperately hoping you are not referring to a University here. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

I think the fact that alot of people feel this way is evidence that our universities are being flooded with students that have no businees being there and probably should be enrolled in vocational training rather than being enrolled in a University..

.In my world only like the top 25% of kids (standardized testing plz)would even be considered for University admissions....Colleges and vocationals schools would pick up the slack.

[Kaz The Original]

You make the point that the schools function is to train the pupil for a job. I agree with you, this is probably the primary function of our school system at the moment. The modern style of compulsary schooling started in prussia, and was great for building armies.

I think this shouldn't be so. I think schools primary function should be to gather as much knowledge as possible. It should function to teach people different methods of thought, different ways of approaching problems. After all, wouldn't having more people thinking be better for us?

[Kaz The Original]

I am certain he is talking about elementary school.

I challenge your assessment that only 25% of students could qualify for university. Do you think intelligence is such a genetic trait? That people are unable to learn? I think, given the right opportunities, anyone is capable of handling a university course.

[zaxx19]

Yes, I do think intelligence is highly genetic...

and Furthermore yes I do think 50%+ can handle courses as they are structured today...watered down and homogenized.

The entire point is they dont want to learn...and they dont have the capacity to really excel or make meaningful contributions intellectually...all they really want is a 75k dollar a yr job and some security in their life and they have been told University is the way to get it.

Why waste professors time? Why waste smart kids time? Why waste the mediocre kids time? Why continue the farce of the University education when so many now leave university so ill-educated they cant point out Gabon on a map of the world.(88% of college grads could not given 2 minutes on a LABELLED map 74% of HARVARD GRADS COULDNT)

Like I said this is my personal belief...not saying it will come into existence anytime soon.

BTW, Id also like to see much much lower tuition for undergrad study...especially in the liberal arts.

[Kaz The Original]

I wonder what those identical twin studies say about intelligence being highly genetic (no, I'm not trapping, I sincerely do not know).

You'll enjoy this, is Gabon a country? I have never heard of it. I would be hard pressed to point it out too.

[Zygote]

Our education system sucks for many reasons. We use standards often that are not scientifically founded.

I also happen to agree with your assessment of what would probably work better. However, i'm not a big fan of making one system to suit all the different particulars.

[Wake up CALL]

[ QUOTE ]
Would you mind telling me how people are supposed to debate, research, analyze, or critically determine anything without knowing any facts whatsoever?


[/ QUOTE ]

Easy, just become a Liberal French Canadian, no facts required. In fact facts obscure their philpsophy and are discouraged.

[fimbulwinter]

1. the socratic method works well for students who are actively motivated to learn the subject matter. in a society where academic acomplishment is compulsory, this obviously doesn't work.

2. the real problem here is much more deep and widespread. The truth, and I know this "sounds" horrible because of how we're all raised, is that not everyone needs or wants an education to the degree which we as a society impose it. some people would really enjoy getting an adequate eduction and then learning and mastering a trade through a non-academic trade school. There are many things that are being tought for the sake of teaching them; should a person be interested and want to learn them, then by all means, but heavy-handed enforcing of the uptake of knowledge which proves superfilous in the vast majority of lives not only wastes the time of the pupil, but it also impedes that person's constitutionally given rights to pursue happiness in the manner they choose.

fim

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
???? Im desperately hoping you are not referring to a University here.

I think the fact that alot of people feel this way is evidence that our universities are being flooded with students that have no businees being there and probably should be enrolled in vocational training rather than being enrolled in a University..

.In my world only like the top 25% of kids (standardized testing plz)would even be considered for University admissions....Colleges and vocationals schools would pick up the slack.

[/ QUOTE ]
I was referring to all levels of schooling. If you learned nothing about the job you're looking for while in college, how likely are you to get and retain that job? Yes, there's usually a liberal arts foundation to give the student a broader perspective, but once you're into your junior/senior years, you start focusing on your major so that you will be better prepared for the job you're seeking.

While I don't agree with you about a school's purpose, I do agree that we need some standardized testing so that teachers are held accountable.

[elwoodblues]

[ QUOTE ]
Would you mind telling me how people are supposed to debate, research, analyze, or critically determine anything without knowing any facts whatsoever?


[/ QUOTE ]

You must be new here. /images/graemlins/wink.gif