A 2+2 table hand. Short handed and 1/2 limit but it belongs here.

[Joe Tall]

This was a 6-max table, but I'd like this forum to view it over as I was told I played it horrible by Orbflux and I'd really like to know why. I was also asked if I've ever played limit because I have to have HUGE swings if I play AA this way by Orbflux. For the record, the BB in this hand was a horrible loose-aggressive-bluffer and the only non-2+2er. Where did I go wrong?


PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Orbflux of HydraIRC-chat raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, Orbflux of HydraIRC-chat calls, BB calls.

Flop: (12.50 SB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333"> Orbflux of HydraIRC-chat raises</font>, BB calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, orbflux of HydraIRC-chat calls, BB calls.

Turn: (10.75 BB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, orbflux of HydraIRC-chat calls, BB calls.

River: (13.75 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>

Thanks boys,
Joe Tall

[cold_cash]

I'd probably raise the flop, especially after capping pre-flop, but I guess doing whatever gets the most money works for me. The flop action is kinda weird though.

If he trapped w/ QQ or JJ and raised you on the river, that's the way it goes. Even so, I don't know what he expected you to do differently, fold to his flop raise?

[Joe Tall]

I'd probably raise the flop, especially after capping pre-flop

Once the live one bets, I was quite sure that Orb would raise. I was also quite sure my hand was still unknown by limp-reraise/then call the flop. It makes the play on the flop quite easy.

you to do differently, fold to his flop raise?

I tried to ask. But his answer was to kick me off the chat. Not sure what that meant, you decide. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Alexthegreat]

Looks really good to me.....Seems like you got a lot of bets in with what is by far the best hand...I'd only be concerned with QQ or JJ, but there isn't anything you could do differently to avoid those hands....

Nice hand...

[Joe Tall]

He had T /images/graemlins/heart.gif9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif what do you think of his play?

Thanks boys,
Joe Tall

[BongRips]

In every situation, I want to raise that flop to isolate the live fish, and take away orb's odds with a draw. If he doesn't raise, you just let him see a card cheap in a situation where you are very likely ahead. Also, why would you want to let another solid player have a chance to see the turn cheaply when you could shut him out of the action? Jamming the flop makes it an easier hand to play imo. Due to the table conditions, I can understand your line, but I'd say I still prefer jamming the flop, as usually, it's the most profitable line.

[Joe Tall]

I want to raise that flop to isolate the live fish, and take away orb's odds with a draw. If he doesn't raise, you just let him see a card cheap in a situation where you are very likely ahead

If he is going to contiue there are only a few hands that he has, KK I have beat, QQ well good for him. The 2 hands he would play aggressively would be AQ, and the heart draw. These hands metioned he is not folding. If he has the heart draw, my plan was to raise a blank on the turn if he correctly calls with it, destroying odds further.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[BongRips]

We're not talking just heart draw or AQ, there are a number of hands that would be getting odds to draw if you do not raise, without a raise, he is getting 14:1, with a raise, he is getting roughly 7.5:1. Without the raise, he basically has license to draw with anything while getting odds, with the raise, he can't draw to improve one pair or draw with a gutshot, etc. Even though hands like this don't seem plausible from a 2+2er, like you said, there was a lot of pf raising, so his range of hands is massive.

[BottlesOf]

I think you played it well. Clearly, this isn't the traditional way to play it, but you aren't at a traditional table. I myself, am not that creative, and don't think it hurts me much that I'm not. Your line (pre-flop/flop) while unorthodox seems a fine way to get a lot of money in with the best hand, although I'm not sure it's necessary.

[Joe Tall]

Was to kick me off the IRC chat. What do you all think of that?

Peace,
Joe Tall

[cold_cash]

Because you beat him out of a pot?

Retarded/bush.

[Glitch]

the side you don't know: he discussed it for 25 minutes to no avail. the aggressive douchebagness of joe warranted the ban, as several others concured. another important point this post ignores: the reverse implieds orb has against you if he does hit the draw. does this supersede the value you get by him just calling? i think so.

[cold_cash]

Well, I got called a "stupid douchebag" tonight too, so as far as I'm concerned everyone can kiss my ass.

Also, if people can get banned for being aggressive at 2+2 tables, those tables are going to be short lived.

[Joe Tall]

I rarely play a hand like this. I'm willing to say, this may be the first time I limp-capped preflop then called-3-bet a flop in my poker career. He also said, "I was the favorite" when we first started to chat about the hand which we all know at best he's a 2:1 dog.

What you all have to consider is the dynamics of the table. Short handed w/aggressive players and the only live one in the big blind. Given this description of the table/players there is only one line to take, the one I took.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[nothumb]

[ QUOTE ]
another important point this post ignores: the reverse implieds orb has against you if he does hit the draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Orb is not folding to raise on the flop. If Joe knew his hand, and knew he would raise the fishy player's bet, he would probably play it the same way. FTOP. I don't know what the hell you're talking about.

NT

[Joe Tall]

another important point this post ignores: the reverse implieds orb has against you if he does hit the draw. does this supersede the value you get by him just calling? i think so.

I'm not sure what you are talking about. Say Orb calls the flop and think if the draw hits the turn, and I have Orb on a likely AQ and the live one bets (as the live one likely would and Orb being of sound mind (we hope) knows this) how much does he bare to make now? Can you explain your resoning further?

Welcome to the forum,
Joe Tall

[Schizo]

I have to ask, who is Orbflux of HydraIRC-chat?

[Joe Tall]

Orb also said, since I capped preflop, he "put me on a huge hand". Now what do you think of his flop play w/the heart draw?

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Alexthegreat]

I could see him raising just so you can 3-bet, getting more money in the pot from the BB and also assuring him of a raise (or two) if his draw hits, because your 3-bet guarantees you are going to showdown with your hand, and not passively....

However, if he just said to himself "Joe has a huge hand, but I have a flush draw, I'll raise"...then he played it very poorly...

[Michael Davis]

Clearly, the word is douchebaggery.

-Michael

[Joe Tall]

I bet, Orbflux and the live one folded. Then, to be kind, I typed AA into the chat and that's when Orb started with his 'played horrible' comments. He also asked if I've ever played limit before. "maybe, once or twice" /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Peace,
Joe Tall

[colgin]

Joe,

Is this a joke? Or are you just testing us to make sure we have not lost our collective minds?

As for your play: C'est parfait, comme dit les francais!

[sfer]

He should have folded to the cap preflop.

EDIT: This is assuming you were playing in-line.

[Joe Tall]

He should have folded to the cap preflop.

You know what Dave, that slipped my mind. You are 100% correct and I was playing mean-poker at that table, perfectly inline. Yes, his preflop call is HORRIBLE.

Thanks for pointing that out.

Coolio,
JT

[cnfuzzd]

even at a six max table, im not very excited about Iso-raising the lag with T9s. Little showdown value, and the lag is going to force me to go to the river alot. IMO, another bad play preflop. I deem your play to be perfect.

peace

john nickle

[BottlesOf]

Isn't that astro?

[thirddan]

i doubt it, i haven't been in the irc room but i thin that astro would know that Joe has played limit before and would see some merit in a more creative approach towards playing AA...and astro probably wouldn't start calling joe out at the table...not sure, but i think orbflux was also mentioned in the GOT/ElD boggle thread...

[Argus]

This is one of my favourite hands I've seen in a while. Fantastically executed.

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
He had T /images/graemlins/heart.gif9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif what do you think of his play?

Thanks boys,
Joe Tall

[/ QUOTE ]

He's just pissed because he played his hand like shi[/b]t.

nh

[sthief09]

I think you would've gotten more action if you just raised first in. or did you think the BB would go nuts? I also hope orbflux doesn't play much higher than .5/1 if that's how he plays and thinks (calling 2 more with ten-high and telling you he's a favorite with 2 undercards to your pair and a flush draw)

[BottlesOf]

Yea that's why I was a little confused...oh well, carry on...

[Shillx]

Yeah often times "slowplaying" big hands preflop and on the flop is the correct strategy at 2p2 tables where people will raise for free cards with little to nothing or just raise postflop because it is fun. This hand is played fine imo.

Brad

[Tosh]

Who the hell is Orbflux?

[morgant]

jt, i looooove it!! orb is just ornery cuz he played that hand like poo. i wasnt around this weekend to unban you and relinquish his banning powers, but i imagine that was the only way he could get back at you for totally pwning him in that hand. keep in mind i dont think he is a day over 18 or 19.

talk to ya soon!
morg

[Joe Tall]

orb is just ornery cuz he played that hand like poo. i wasnt around this weekend to unban you and relinquish his banning powers, but i imagine that was the only way he could get back at you for totally pwning him in that hand. keep in mind i dont think he is a day over 18 or 19.

I figured as much. I just wanted to teach something, granted I was drunk and you when I get challanged, there is no end in sight.

However, we had a Kum By Yah moment tonight and made up. The kid's got fire and it's a good thing as I was the same when I was his age 15 years ago. It's a good sign. He's got promise in the game, I hope we all learn something for this. I have.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[MaxPower]

When you limp in at a 6 max table full of aggressive players, there is no way I am going to raise you with T9s. That is just a dumb play.

[PokerBob]

I don't get the call/3-bet flop line. That isn't to say it is bad, just kinda weird IMO.

Other than that, I don't get why you were ripped for you play. But then again, I'm average. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't get the call/3-bet flop line. That isn't to say it is bad, just kinda weird IMO.

Other than that, I don't get why you were ripped for you play. But then again, I'm average. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

It's because:

1 - MP reads JT for a weak hand, maybe some kind of draw.
2 - MP knows BB is terrible and can have a lot of different weak hands here.
3 - MP will be overly aggressive here, trying to knock players out and buy free cards.
4 - If JT raises here (especially after his limp-cap preflop), MP will slow way down and possibly fold a hand that is far behind.
5 - JT knows all of this, and knows he's almost guaranteed to get a raise by MP if he just calls, thus allowing him to 3-bet.

It's similar to how many players play a flopped set, except in this case JT planned it out before his initial check; most players just call, get a "surprise" raise in behind them, then decide to 3-bet.

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
When you limp in at a 6 max table full of aggressive players, there is no way I am going to raise you with T9s. That is just a dumb play.

[/ QUOTE ]
That was my thought.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]

3 - MP will be overly aggressive here, trying to knock players out and buy free cards.


[/ QUOTE ]

Should not JT's limp/cap PF set off an alarm here for villain?

[Schneids]

Orb's flop raise is awful unless you have AK and he expects the BB to 3-bet on the flop and that he knows you'll fold an unimproved AK by the river and that you aren't going to hit an ace or king and that if he hits a ten or nine it's good versus BB and that his flop raise is going to make you think it's less likely he has a flush draw (so he'll get more action when it hits) since conventional wisdom would say call on this flop raising is worthless since it's likely somebody will 3-bet and deny you a free turn card.

If all of these are true then Orb's flop raise is good.

[Sarge85]

[ QUOTE ]
He had T /images/graemlins/heart.gif9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif what do you think of his play?

Thanks boys,
Joe Tall

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a raise at a 6 max table with that hands sucks A$$.

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif