would you ever push with any 2?

[Allinlife]

5 handed you have 680 UTG, big blind is 200. if you fold now it looks like you won't really have any FE left and that sucks. you look down to see kind of cards you'd double down with..

considering no one is noticibly calling alot, and with BB with say 1500ish stack, is it correct to push with any 2?

p.s could someone post a link to a guide that calculates EV of a push? thanks

[Scuba Chuck]

If you learn to understand FE, you'll understand if you can push with any two. In this precise scenario you cannot, and most likely in general, you're waiting for your next best hand to push, If you're lucky top 20%, but most likely top third. You need a showdown to get back in this game, or a really well deserved suckout. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[wegs the wegs]

Where exactly is folding equity?

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
Where exactly is folding equity?

[/ QUOTE ]

folding equity means you have enough chips to scare/hurt people when you push - hence you still enjoy some equity by virtue of the fact that everyone else might fold in addition to the equity that your cards might win at showdown

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[Scuba Chuck]

See the clues in the thread "Lack of folding equity"

[egj]

What's wrong with pushing any two here?

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
If you learn to understand FE, you'll understand if you can push with any two. In this precise scenario you cannot, and most likely in general, you're waiting for your next best hand to push, If you're lucky top 20%, but most likely top third. You need a showdown to get back in this game, or a really well deserved suckout. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're at liberty to push with a very wide range of hands here. Perhaps even any two in some circumstances.

How often do you think you'd win the blinds here pushing Scuba? How good a hand do you need here to be pushing?

Yugoslav

[curtains]

Sometimes they will fold here, so you do have some folding equity, but you are overdoing it if you are pushing with any 2 in these spots. Also it helps to know how many players are still in. 5-6 handed is a lot different than 10 handed here.
Sometimes in sit and go's the cards don't go your way, and you have no choice but to fold and hope to get lucky in the blinds. It feels really disgusting when it goes like this, but it's just going to happen sometimes. You will get called here too often, and even if they all fold, it doesn't help you THAT much.

[Scuba Chuck]

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You will get called here too often

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That's my analysis. In this scenario, it's unlikely you have any real FE against any other stack. My answer changes if he does. If that's the case, you're looking for a showdown to double up. I'd HOPE for a top 1/3 hand to push or call with. If you double up, then there's a high probability I'd push a hand soon against the next available BB against whom I have FE against (i.e. not the big stack).

[curtains]

Ok but let's understand that it's really ridiculous to talk about this without knowing how many opponents there are. Sometimes there are 4 left at the 100-200 blind level and sometimes there are 8.
You almost always have folding equity with 680 and blinds of 100-200. I suspect the BB will usually fold something like Q9o if it comes back to them. Despite that, someone might just have a good hand, and the 300 you gain from stealing is only buying you a few more hands. After you pay the blinds you are back to 680 with 100-200 blinds, and as soon as blinds get to 150-300 (which could be soon, this detail wasn't mentioned), you have no steal equity.

[stillmatic]

i would be very tempted to push with blinds as high as they are. you've got to make a move sometime, just hope the timing is right. you wont be able to scare anyone off barely a 2-7 in another round

[The Yugoslavian]

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Ok but let's understand that it's really ridiculous to talk about this without knowing how many opponents there are. Sometimes there are 4 left at the 100-200 blind level and sometimes there are 8.


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It's 5-handed in this thought experiment per the original poster.

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You almost always have folding equity with 680 and blinds of 100-200. I suspect the BB will usually fold something like Q9o if it comes back to them.


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Yes, this is why I think there *is* some FE here and those free chips are going to be so much of your stack anyway that pushing (not with any two) with a wide range may be in order.

[ QUOTE ]

Despite that, someone might just have a good hand, and the 300 you gain from stealing is only buying you a few more hands. After you pay the blinds you are back to 680 with 100-200 blinds,


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Which we both seem to think has at least *some* FE associated with it.

[ QUOTE ]

and as soon as blinds get to 150-300 (which could be soon, this detail wasn't mentioned), you have no steal equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes indeedy. I agree with all of your good points here.

Perhaps this 5-handed UTG situation with any two just really, really sucks. None of the OP's options are very good. However, no matter what my hand was I'd at least consider pushing here very seriously and fight for some wiggle room.

Yugoslav

[curtains]

Ooops I apologize for misreading!!!!! I suck

[Scuba Chuck]

As I've admitted in the past, I can turn into a weak tight player, and this is one of those situations. Here is why.

If it's 5 handed, that means 7,320 chips are distributed among 4 other players. Avg of 1,830 each.

Next if blinds are 100/200, pot is t300, meaning that to call HERO's push of 680 is 2:1 pot odds. Making it worthy of a risk for many SnG players. Plus, HERO definately looks desperate. What do you think their mentality will be?

It is possible, that HERO maybe pushing against another SS. And it's possible if this other SS has 1200 chips or less, he might fold.

But these are all details left out of fantasy scenario.

Frankly, if HERO has any steal equity, it is against only one other player. If things line up correctly, meaning given the set of factors above and BB is 2nd SS, you can sometimes catch me pushing with any two here.

But, this was a much more general question.

On that note, we should start hammering these guys about giving more facts. This damn game is hard enough, if you want some real help, give more info. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Otherwise, beware of the responses you get. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[willie24]

[ QUOTE ]
You will get called here too often

[/ QUOTE ]

your pot odds are probably pretty good when you do get called. (quite a bit of dead money in pot on average- from either blind)

[ QUOTE ]
it doesn't help you THAT much

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i think it helps a whole lot

[curtains]

So you are saying you push with any 2 here?

[willie24]

yes, at least sometimes.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]

On that note, we should start hammering these guys about giving more facts. This damn game is hard enough, if you want some real help, give more info. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't know I was helping anyone, /images/graemlins/wink.gif. The best advice I've ever heard was a cliche from Strassa that I read: 'any two win baby.' or something like that (as he raised from MP with like 62o or some complete garbage).

The dead chips and FE you have make a push here attractive. Perhaps not nearly as attractive as curtain's sister but still possibly more attractive than folding.

Yugoslav
P.S. Curtains, I will forgive your oversight if you merely put a good word in to your sis for me, /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

[curtains]

I do sometimes too. I don't always, and I don't as much as I used to.

[willie24]

it's totally dependant on your read on BB. if he's not tight at this point, i don't do it.

most of the time, he will be pretty tight.

[curtains]

one important point is that when you do get lucky and win in the blind, you get a bunch of free hands, and can afford another set of blinds.
If you are going to steal blinds 50% of the time, its a very easy allin, if you are going to steal them 10% of the time I think its a fold. Not sure when it goes from being a fold to being an allin. (Assuming a hand like 73o)

[willie24]

i have never played a game where you would not win the blinds significantly more than 10%. that's not to say games like that dont exist. im sure they do. (i mostly play AP)

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
The dead chips and FE you have make a push here attractive. Perhaps not nearly as attractive as curtain's sister but still possibly more attractive than folding.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know about Curtains sister, but this is an aspect of my game that I've recently changed. My only conclusion is that I was unhappy with my results from your strategy. And I don't think I have enough results to report that I've been happy with this change. But I have thus far.

[The Yugoslavian]

Results are not nearly as important as they might seem.

I doubt either of us have enough 'results' to determine if the push is right or wrong here.

What I do have is a handful of reasonable assumptions and the link to ICM, /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

I still think this is a push a lot if not most/all of the time.

I'm willing to die pushing with nothing if:
A) My perceived FE is high enough
B) My FE is about to evaporate in a major way
C) It is one of my few mis-clicks

I think A and B (and even C) apply here to varying degrees.

Yugoslav

[curtains]

Willie I know that its unlikely that youll win the blinds less than 10%, I was just giving an example of what would make it a clear fold.
I'm not sure where the middleground lies where it becomes a very close decision between folding and moving allin. But figuring this number and then deciding whether the game you are currently in will call your bet more or less than the given number is where it gets very hard.