Do you ever fold QQ preflop?

[JoshuaD]

Let's assume readless typical party 2/4.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG raises, UTG+1 3-bets, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 caps, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero ???

I can fold JJ here, should I also be folding QQ?

[mr pink]

no, i dont think folding jacks would be too good either.

[Schizo]

I'm not sure about the JJ, but I def wouldn't fold the QQ.

[adamstewart]

Call QQ.

Fold JJ.


Be very cautious with your QQ postflop, though. Easy fold if an ace or king appears on the board.


Adam

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]
no, i dont think folding jacks would be too good either.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if we assume somewhat intellegent raises, you're right to fold JJ:

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

5,691,767,928 games 49.481 secs 115,029,363 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 13.7072 % [ 00.13 00.00 ] { AA-99, AKs-ATs, KQs-KJs, AKo-AJo, KQo-KJo }
Hand 2: 27.9803 % [ 00.26 00.02 ] { AA-TT, AKs-AQs, AKo }
Hand 3: 36.9357 % [ 00.35 00.02 ] { AA-JJ, AKs, AKo }
Hand 4: 21.3768 % [ 00.21 00.01 ] { JJ }</pre><hr />

Even if you've got guys raising with pretty marginal stuff, like 3-betting with AJo, JJ is still not getting the required equity:

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

6,008,882,264 games 60.968 secs 98,557,969 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 13.8516 % [ 00.13 00.01 ] { AA-88, AKs-ATs, KQs-KJs, QJs, AKo-ATo, KQo-KJo }
Hand 2: 26.3249 % [ 00.25 00.02 ] { AA-TT, AKs-AJs, KQs, AKo-AJo, KQo }
Hand 3: 35.2243 % [ 00.34 00.02 ] { AA-TT, AKs-AQs, AKo-AQo }
Hand 4: 24.5993 % [ 00.24 00.00 ] { JJ }

</pre><hr />


You should definitely be folding JJ here, especially considering what the implied odds look like: If you don't hit your set, you won't know where you are on the flop, and you'll end up paying the overpairs, while missed overcards won't be paying you.

[jason_t]

Same. I'm folding JJ and calling with QQ. Play it cautiously after the flop.

[mr pink]

good post, thanks man.

[JoshuaD]

Just ran the same numbers for QQ, things look alot better for her:

Against the semi-intellegent raises:
<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 12.8639 % [ 00.13 00.00 ] { AA-99, AKs-ATs, KQs-KJs, AKo-AJo, KQo-KJo }
Hand 2: 26.2497 % [ 00.24 00.02 ] { AA-TT, AKs-AQs, AKo }
Hand 3: 28.5277 % [ 00.26 00.02 ] { AA-TT, AKs, AKo }
Hand 4: 32.3586 % [ 00.31 00.01 ] { QQ }
</pre><hr />

And against the crazy raises:

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

4,150,722,576 games 41.429 secs 100,188,818 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 11.9462 % [ 00.12 00.00 ] { AA-88, AKs-ATs, KQs-KJs, QJs, AKo-ATo, KQo-KJo }
Hand 2: 23.2622 % [ 00.22 00.02 ] { AA-TT, AKs-AJs, KQs, AKo-AJo, KQo }
Hand 3: 34.1177 % [ 00.33 00.02 ] { AA-TT, AKs-AQs, AKo-AQo }
Hand 4: 30.6739 % [ 00.30 00.00 ] { QQ }

</pre><hr />

It looks like QQ has got more than her fair share of equity both times.

[sthief09]

Hand 1: 15.7782 % [ 00.14 00.02 ] { AA-TT, AKs-AJs, KQs, AKo-AJo, KQo }
Hand 2: 24.0947 % [ 00.20 00.04 ] { AA-JJ, AKs-AQs, AKo }
Hand 3: 32.2455 % [ 00.28 00.04 ] { AA-QQ, AKs, AKo }
Hand 4: 27.8816 % [ 00.26 00.01 ] { QQ }

these are very generous I think. MP1 won't always cold cap with AKo and UTG won't always be raising AJo or KQo

further, you're going to be in a tough spot on the flop. if it comes A or K high, that's fine. but if it doesn't, then it's probably going to be multiple bets to you and you're going to have some tough decisions. that's not a reason to fold, but the chance you're drawing to 2 outs and have to put in multiple outs are high. I'd fold it but I'm not confident in my answer at all.

[JoshuaD]

So, I guess I should rephrase my question: Considering these numbers, can anyone make a case for folding QQ here?

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
no, i dont think folding jacks would be too good either.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think jacks would be an easy fold facing all that aggression.

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]
further, you're going to be in a tough spot on the flop. if it comes A or K high, that's fine. but if it doesn't, then it's probably going to be multiple bets to you and you're going to have some tough decisions. that's not a reason to fold, but the chance you're drawing to 2 outs and have to put in multiple outs are high. I'd fold it but I'm not confident in my answer at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea, that's what I'm thinking. It looks like there's a small equity edge, but it's going to be hard to avoid paying everyone else off when you're beat, when it'll be pretty easy for them to fold whiffed overcards.

[sthief09]

if you're going to play, I'd play it aggressively in the absense of an A or K. don't let them push you around. if the first one bets with TT and someone raises and you just call he might 3-bet. if you 3-bet, he'll call and you're putting pressure on the other guy if he has AA or KK. if you can somehow slow them down I'd check behind on the river. also, don't let AK draw out on you cheaply

[JoshuaD]

Bumparoo.

[Alexthegreat]

How good are the players?? I'd only be folding if the 3-bettor or capper were good players.....Against your typical LAG table I'm not folding QQ, and while I may be folding JJ, I'd have to think about it for a bit before I actually chucked it

[imported_Jim C]

What software does this simulation? Is it publicly available?

Thanks in advance,

Jim

[me454555]

Easy to toss JJ and easy to toss QQ

Youve got 3 people who like their hands already playing. The original raiser and 3better don't have the opportunity to show how strong they really are b/c the betting is already capped. Lets say one of the raisers has AQ, another has JJ or so, you've still got a 3rd raiser to contend with who can have a real hand too.

Odds are one of em has AK or worse yet, KK or AA. If this is the case, your either slight favorite or a huge dog and this seems like a fine place to toss it b/c your only getting 3:1 on your cold call to flop a set.

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]
Easy to toss JJ and easy to toss QQ

Youve got 3 people who like their hands already playing. The original raiser and 3better don't have the opportunity to show how strong they really are b/c the betting is already capped. Lets say one of the raisers has AQ, another has JJ or so, you've still got a 3rd raiser to contend with who can have a real hand too.

Odds are one of em has AK or worse yet, KK or AA. If this is the case, your either slight favorite or a huge dog and this seems like a fine place to toss it b/c your only getting 3:1 on your cold call to flop a set.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, there are only 3 considerations to make, IMO. Equity, Immediate pot odds, and implied odds.

If we've got an equity edge, we're right to get involved. Unless, for some reason, the expected postflop action costs us alot when we're behind, and nets us little when we're ahead.

[Danenania]

I'd probably call with no reads, mostly for set value, since the implied odds would be monstrous if I'm against AA and KK or something, but also because people can be crazy and I will have the best hand occasionally. If I didn't hit a set I'd be playing very passively postflop, even with an overpair.

With a read on one or two of the raisers (especially the capper) as passive preflop, I would fold in a heartbeat.

I'd be more inclined to fold QQ if a known TAG raised UTG then a guy with a PFR of 3 reraised him and I was next. Fewer bets to call but the pot and implied odds are much worse in this scenario.

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd probably call with no reads, mostly for set value, since the implied odds would be monstrous if I'm against AA and KK or something, but also because people can be crazy and I will have the best hand occasionally. If I didn't hit a set I'd be playing very passively postflop, even with an overpair.

With a read on one or two of the raisers (especially the capper) as passive preflop, I would fold in a heartbeat.

I'd be more inclined to fold QQ if a known TAG raised UTG then a guy with a PFR of 3 reraised him and I was next. Fewer bets to call but the pot and implied odds are much worse in this scenario.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your implied odds on the set aren't very good at all.

You're getting 3:1 (i'm assuing no one else is hopping in behind you) preflop, and you're putting in 2BB's. You're gonna have to make up 9BB post flop when you hit that set for you to break even playing it for a set, that's not gonna happen on average. I know I watch for high sets when there's alot of action PF and I've got AA or KK, and I'm careful not to pay them too well past the flop.

[Michael Davis]

Clearly you should fold JJ and QQ here. Any hand range for normal players that says you have enough equity is being way too wide on the range of threebetting and capping hands.

-Michael

[pyroponic]

Yeah calling the cap with QQ here is a very bad play. I wouldn't be suprised if you were up against BOTH KK and AA.

[Carmine]

If you are being traumatized by letting this go PF you could always ask yourself what cards you would like to see fall on all the streets (other than the obvious longshot Q).

If an A or K falls you feel your cooked. If a J or T falls you feel someone just made their set. If all rags fall then it is more likely that the A's and K's you are in the other players hands and your left hoping that all they are split equally among the players rather than in pairs.

If this line of thinking is correct then folding becomes much easier IMO.

[deadmunny]

I had made a similar post with AKo ..........I was right in my thinking one player had QQ and the other had AA......irony is I still would have won as Q,J,10 came by the turn.

In answer to your post, One respondent to mine said:

Pretty much the only time was when he had played 500 hands against this TAG who had raised PF only 3 times ALL three were with AA so he folded.


Regards D

[ScottTheFish]

[ QUOTE ]
Pretty much the only time was when he had played 500 hands against this TAG who had raised PF only 3 times ALL three were with AA so he folded.
Regards D

[/ QUOTE ]

Someone who only raisesd AA cannot possibly be considered a TAG. Uber-rock is more like it.

[me454555]

How sure are you that we have equity preflop? The capper cold easily have AA or KK.

How can we be sure we will have implied odds if we hit? What kind of a flop w/out a Q is good for our hand? Even if we have an overpair by the river, we probobly won't know if we won untill the hands are exposed

This seems like a very tricky hand to play and one that could get very expensive leaving us drawing 2 outs the whole time.

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]
How sure are you that we have equity preflop? The capper cold easily have AA or KK.

[/ QUOTE ]


I didn't say we did, I was just saying that his method of determining if you should call here or not was flawed.

[PokerBob]

If this is true......
[ QUOTE ]
Let's assume readless typical party 2/4.

[/ QUOTE ]

......then this.......
[ QUOTE ]

I can fold JJ here, should I also be folding QQ?

[/ QUOTE ]

.......is completely insane. You are behind 3 hands.

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]
If this is true......
[ QUOTE ]
Let's assume readless typical party 2/4.

[/ QUOTE ]

......then this.......
[ QUOTE ]

I can fold JJ here, should I also be folding QQ?

[/ QUOTE ]

.......is completely insane. You are behind 3 hands.

[/ QUOTE ]


Did you read the rest of the thread? Do you still think so?

... Can you say anything that will convince me besides "this is completely insane"?

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd probably call with no reads, mostly for set value, since the implied odds would be monstrous if I'm against AA and KK or something, but also because people can be crazy and I will have the best hand occasionally. If I didn't hit a set I'd be playing very passively postflop, even with an overpair.

With a read on one or two of the raisers (especially the capper) as passive preflop, I would fold in a heartbeat.

I'd be more inclined to fold QQ if a known TAG raised UTG then a guy with a PFR of 3 reraised him and I was next. Fewer bets to call but the pot and implied odds are much worse in this scenario.

[/ QUOTE ]


this is really the only example I can think of where you reverse implied odds and implied odds are both tremendous. Since you're against AA or KK probably somewhere around 75% of the time (that's just a guess), the flop is going to have you drawing to 2 outs and paying multiple bets 7.5/8.5 of the time or your opponent drawing to 2 outs and paying multiple outs 1/8.5 of the time. normally with a pocket pair, that 7.5/8.5 where you're drawing to 2 outs carries no reverse implied odds because most of the time you miss a set, you're mucking. here, it does, as in a 4-way capped pot it's next to impossible to release 2 queens unless an A or K flops. I wouldn't say that it cancels them out, but your implied odds aren't as good as with, say, 33. still, you're going to win a lot more pots with QQ, but the bonus of implied odds for QQ here is smaller than it would be for 33 (great hand + medium bonus compared to terrible hand + huge bonus). I don't consider either playable. QQ is close. I don't think JJ is. I feel like Clarkmeister is going to come here and call Michael Davis and I crazy for suggesting that people muck QQ or JJ preflop against 2/4 players.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
If this is true......
[ QUOTE ]
Let's assume readless typical party 2/4.

[/ QUOTE ]

......then this.......
[ QUOTE ]

I can fold JJ here, should I also be folding QQ?

[/ QUOTE ]

.......is completely insane. You are behind 3 hands.

[/ QUOTE ]


let's say your opponent accidentally flips over two aces. you're still behind 2 hands (don't know where your 3 comes from), but clearly you should fold. just because QQ is a great hand doesn't mean it's automatically playable. I don't think most people cold cap with more then AA, KK, QQ, and maybe AKs. I personally don't and I'm near maniacal preflop

[Chris Daddy Cool]

i've only read the post title and i'd say yes, i have folded QQ and JJ preflop before in limit hold'em. its rare but it happens.

if its 4 bets cold to me the only hands i'm playing are AA,KK, and AKs (if there are non raising coldcallers in between).

the reverse implied odds and utter domination you'll face when you flop an overpair with QQ,JJ and TT are just too great to be paying through your nose to see a showdown with. the fact that possibly 2 A's and 2 K's out there makes it mosre likely that you'll flop an overpair and if you're not carful or disiplined enough its going to be really tough to release.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If this is true......
[ QUOTE ]
Let's assume readless typical party 2/4.

[/ QUOTE ]

......then this.......
[ QUOTE ]

I can fold JJ here, should I also be folding QQ?

[/ QUOTE ]

.......is completely insane. You are behind 3 hands.

[/ QUOTE ]


Did you read the rest of the thread? Do you still think so?

... Can you say anything that will convince me besides "this is completely insane"?

[/ QUOTE ]

I missed the cold-cap, thus I should have written "I am completely insane." That said, I can see dumping JJ, but I'm not so sure about QQ. CDC's argument makes it seem like an easy muck (especially since, at least for me and my limited abilities, I KNOW it will be hard to toss post flop if an A or K don't hit), but those ladies are SOOOOO pretty. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

But.....I've seen some really weird &amp;%^#$ at 2-4, so seeing it go AK, TT, AQs is not out of the realm of the realistic. I think the true problem with this hand comes in playing it post-flop.

I think I'm getting 'em in there with QQ and letting jj go, but I'm only an average player.

[Michael Davis]

I think playing AKs is wrong. Sure, it's less likely somebody has aces or kings, but there's still the overwhelming evidence of having to call a coldcap against EP raisers.

-Michael

[Twitch1977]

Freeware.

http://www.pokerstove.com

Love,
T

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
I think playing AKs is wrong. Sure, it's less likely somebody has aces or kings, but there's still the overwhelming evidence of having to call a coldcap against EP raisers.

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

quite true, though i honestly cannot remember a time when this came up. i've coldcapped AKs plenty of tiems before, but not sure what would happen if it was capped cold to me.

[DeeJ]

No.

You may be up against 99, AK, JJ , TT, AQs who knows what loosies raise up A7 ?

I'd be more keen to fold if people bet and raise into an Ace or a King on the flop. You have decent position, I would see the flop and play it from there.

[DeeJ]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah calling the cap with QQ here is a very bad play. I wouldn't be suprised if you were up against BOTH KK and AA.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't at all true for a typical Party 1/2 .... this is hardly the realm of weak tighties who all have 15% VPIPs.

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]
This isn't at all true for a typical Party 1/2 .... this is hardly the realm of weak tighties who all have 15% VPIPs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, the 1/2 is accidental. This wasn't a real hand, I just stole some other hand history I had and modified it to be capped to me with QQ. Up top of my post it says "assume typical 2/4 game."

[DeeJ]

Maybe it would be helpful if you simply said the whole truth, and nothing but the truth /images/graemlins/grin.gif