THIS IS THE WORST FLOOR DECISION EVER!!! [Archive]

lehighguy

02-12-2005, 03:55 PM

I wasn't in the hand, but the two guys to my right where, and I found it so disgusting I got up and left.

1/2 NL at the Borgata ($300 max buyin)
Player 1 is BB with QQ.
Player 2 is UTG with AA.

Preflop:
Player 2 raises to $15, get one MP caller, and BB calls.

Flop:
Flop is some unsuited low rags. Player 2 bets $20, MP folds. Player 1 says he's all in. Player 2 things for 30 seconds, then in a clear and loud voice, says he calls. Since the two are both all in, they flip over thier cards. Then the dealer grabs the guys pocket aces, throws them in with the flop cards, and turns them face down. The table erupts. We try to tell her that there are two more cards and the other guy might hit his queen. Then she says that she thought the first guy (pocket aces) folded to the all in. This is puzzling since I sitting right next to them and people on the other side of the table heard him say call. Player 2 did nothing wrong on this hand and in no way violated the rules. He even kept his cards fairly close to him and the dealer practically had to push his hand out of the way to get to them. Anyway, I suppose mistakes happen, but then your suppose to correct them. SO here comes the floorperson.

Floor Decision:
The floor person comes over and after hearing the story says "THE POT HAS TO BE GIVEN TO THE QUEENS SINCE HIS HAND IS STILL THERE". What???? They're not even going to chop it. They're giving the entire pot to the queens?????????? This is rediculous.

At this point me and another old gentlemen who plays alot try to talk some reason into the women. I tell her simply:
"There are 5 cards face down in that pile, the two aces and the three flop cards. The deck is right there and all the other dead cards are in another pile right there. Just turn over the pile in the center, give the guy his aces back, and deal two more cards. There is no reason we can't continue the hand. All of the necessary items are right in place, everyone agrees what each person had and what the flop cards are, we all saw it. Its the only fair way to end this hand."

After argueing for a little bit they gave the entire pot to the queens guy (this was double annoying since the aces guy was good and the queens guy was atrocious). After seeing this (combined with an earlier dealer mistake) I got up from the table and left.

Your thoughts?

Kaz The Original

02-12-2005, 04:04 PM

So yo uwant the good player to win money, not the bad one?

private joker

02-12-2005, 04:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Your thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Queens guy should have been nice and tossed a few chips AA's way.

Also, ridiculous doesn't have an E in it. Sorry to single you out, but it's an error I've seen on this board multiple times and it's driving me nuts. Do a search engine query for "rediculous" and you'll find a frightening number of hits.

Thirdly, it's more a major dealer error than a floor decision. I agree the floor should have righted dealer's wrong, but the main ire should be pointed towards the incompetent dealer.

foofighter

02-12-2005, 04:13 PM

What do u care anyhow? You should be happy the worse player had more chips for you to take now!

lapoker17

02-12-2005, 04:14 PM

If I'm the guy w QQ and I also heard AA call, then I'm chopping the pot with him on my own.

lehighguy

02-12-2005, 04:31 PM

The QQ guy admitted the other guy called. But he was a degenerate gambler that just lost a ton of money in the casino and wasn't about to give any back. In fact, without going into details, he just seemed like a backward degerate in general.

To all the people that are complaining, what the flying [censored]. I don't care that money went to a bad player. I'M NOT IN THE HAND. It's got nothing to do with whats in it for me. It's about fairness and simple competence. I play poker and take money from people all the time, but its fair. Have you people become such leeches on society you have lost all moral bearing at all. Jesus [censored]-ing christ I hope this happens to you and no one stands up for you. Life isn't always about EV.

PhatCasino

02-12-2005, 04:35 PM

i was involved in a similar hand.. however the deck was SPILLED..........
meaning the dealer tipped it over.. so the hand couldn't continue (I guess) .. so we agreed on a chop
i did have the best of it, but i didn't care

detroitplayer

02-12-2005, 05:11 PM

I know a lot of guys here always give grief to the guy who got his cards mucked... But when you call an all-in and flip up your cards, what are you supposed to do then? Start piling chips on your flipped over cards to protect them? What if the dealer just pushes the chips off your cards and mucks em anyway?

I'm always a little annoyed when it comes to this situation and people take the dealer's side because the player "didn't protect his hand well enough".

Jay36489

02-12-2005, 06:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
To all the people that are complaining, what the flying [censored]. I don't care that money went to a bad player. I'M NOT IN THE HAND. It's got nothing to do with whats in it for me. It's about fairness and simple competence. I play poker and take money from people all the time, but its fair. Have you people become such leeches on society you have lost all moral bearing at all. Jesus [censored]-ing christ I hope this happens to you and no one stands up for you. Life isn't always about EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well said!

Ulysses

02-12-2005, 06:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I know a lot of guys here always give grief to the guy who got his cards mucked... But when you call an all-in and flip up your cards, what are you supposed to do then? Start piling chips on your flipped over cards to protect them? What if the dealer just pushes the chips off your cards and mucks em anyway?

I'm always a little annoyed when it comes to this situation and people take the dealer's side because the player "didn't protect his hand well enough".

[/ QUOTE ]

I agtee of course that the hand should have been retrieved and completed - most good floor men will do this in this situation when everyone agrees and there is no dispute over who had/did what.

I also agree that the QQ guy should have chopped the pot w/ AA guy. I would do that no question.

However, having said all that, this is a great example of why you should ALWAYS maintain control of your cards until the dealer has pushed you the pot. I am the most easy-going guy in the cardroom about everything. But there's one thing that I'm a nit about. The dealer doesn't get my cards until I get the money.

slickpoppa

02-12-2005, 06:37 PM

Randy_Refeld

02-12-2005, 08:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
But when you call an all-in and flip up your cards, what are you supposed to do then

[/ QUOTE ]

By rule these cards are protected. Anytime you choose to play where the floor staff is unfamiliar with the rules and procedures of poker there is a risk of somethign like this occurring.

Randy Refeld

detroitplayer

02-12-2005, 08:48 PM

Well, when two players are all in, how do you know that the dealer isn't grabbing your cards to position them in the middle of the table before dealing the turn/river?

After the dealer has your cards in hand, they could go in the muck just as fast.

Randy_Refeld

02-12-2005, 08:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
how do you know that the dealer isn't grabbing your cards to position them in the middle of the table before dealing the turn/river?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would never allow a dealer to position my cards in teh center of the table. By turning them up at they are "protected" by rule, but I would never release my cards without getting the pot. I was dealing once and a player asked me to pull the winnign hand to the center so he coudl see it better and I told him if he couldn't see it that he shoudl walk to the other end of the table that I wasn't gogin to ask the winner for his cards until after I had mucked all the losers (this guy had his hand and could see the cards he just wanted to complain about his beat some more).

Randy Refeld

Bremen

02-12-2005, 09:06 PM

I wonder if this is the same dealer that did a similiar thing to me... wish I could remember her name. The ruling went the other way btw (different circumstances though, so who knows).

grandgnu

02-12-2005, 09:09 PM

While I completely understand the ethical/moral issues brought up here, my understanding of standard poker rules is that once a hand has hit the muck, it's dead.

A player is responsible for protecting his hand. Still, in this situation the floor could have looked to the cameras for further evidence of what happened, and of course everyone at the table putting in their own two cents.

In the end, the floor has the final decision. I would be mighty upset with that much money in the pot and my better hand being mucked by mistake.

I believe the floor person followed the rules, but unfortunately that isn't always what is best. It's a difficult situation though, because if you choose to allow it one time, and not another, then you have no consistancy in the rules.

Ulysses

02-12-2005, 09:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Well, when two players are all in, how do you know that the dealer isn't grabbing your cards to position them in the middle of the table before dealing the turn/river?

After the dealer has your cards in hand, they could go in the muck just as fast.

[/ QUOTE ]

The dealer gets to touch my cards after he gives me the pot.

Randy_Refeld

02-12-2005, 09:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
my understanding of standard poker rules is that once a hand has hit the muck, it's dead.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a common misunderstanding. When a hand touches the muck it is fouled and MAY be declared dead. There are probbaly a few places where they don't know any better and have a rule that your hand is dead dor touching the muck, but the standards rules would allow a hand turned face up and seen by all to play.

Randy Refeld

lehighguy

02-12-2005, 09:37 PM

The point is they weren't mixed up with the other cards. There was a pile of five cards, 3 flop cards and the aces. They werent in the muck. The hand could have continued.

detroitplayer

02-12-2005, 09:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, when two players are all in, how do you know that the dealer isn't grabbing your cards to position them in the middle of the table before dealing the turn/river?

After the dealer has your cards in hand, they could go in the muck just as fast.

[/ QUOTE ]

The dealer gets to touch my cards after he gives me the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even in a tourney?

random

02-12-2005, 09:48 PM

grandgnu

02-12-2005, 10:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
my understanding of standard poker rules is that once a hand has hit the muck, it's dead.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a common misunderstanding. When a hand touches the muck it is fouled and MAY be declared dead. There are probbaly a few places where they don't know any better and have a rule that your hand is dead dor touching the muck, but the standards rules would allow a hand turned face up and seen by all to play.

Randy Refeld

[/ QUOTE ]

FROM ROBERT'S RULES OF POKER

2. Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved at management’s discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. We will make an extra effort to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of false information given to the player.

I was just going off memory, so yes, the floor MAY retrieve the hand. But the floor MAY also consider the hand dead. It's unfortunate, although if I was the guy with Q/Q and I'd rather have the pot awarded to me than have to face A/A with two more cards to come and the possibility of losing everything.

Sure, it's not moral or ethical, but hey, you play to win money from your opponents. If the rules a casino utilizes help you in that regard, well, so be it. But then again, I wouldn't want to be on the opposite end of that.

I'd be on the fence here. It's kind of like when you go to the store and hand them a $20, and they give you your $20 back with your change. Sometimes I'm inclined to make them aware of the error, and other times I'm happy to have been paid for the product I just bought.

I'm too damn neutral, I need to pick a side. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

kemystery

02-12-2005, 11:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
but the standards rules would allow a hand turned face up and seen by all to play.

Randy Refeld

[/ QUOTE ]

What they need are some standard rules regarding such routine mistakes.

a misdeal story:

2-5 NL I'm up front raise to 15 w/ TT, LPP reraises to $40, I call

flop: 962r

I check, LPP bets $100 - I raise to 460 all in.
Before LPP even knows how much it is to call, the dealer starts running out the turn and river, turn is a 9 b: 9629. Early burn and turn.
Floorman comes over all apologetic - to the other guy, tells him, 'don't worry that card is gonna come back, you're gonna get a new card.' Not - ' Its $360 to call sir what is your action?' but - 'Don't worry, you're going to get a new card.' So he starts unracking his chips for a call, and I'm like 'Did he call?' LPP says 'Yeah, I don't think you got the nine.'

Dealer runs it out, 9 6 2 K 7

Player tables 77
/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Randy_Refeld

02-12-2005, 11:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What they need are some standard rules regarding such routine mistakes.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a standard rule. The floor will learn the exact detail of the situation and then make a ruling for that set of circumstances.

Randy Refeld

lapoker17

02-12-2005, 11:39 PM

Me too - And this is really the lesson. As bad as these morons f'd it up - Keep control of your cards - It generally solves everything.

gummy d

02-13-2005, 04:26 AM

This is not a tournament. There is no reason either player should flip his cards up because he is all in until the hand is over. Then it's the bettor's responsibility to show his hand at showdown and if player b has him beat he shows his hand. LISTEN to Diablo: get the chips give the cards up. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

detroitplayer

02-13-2005, 04:46 AM

Dead

02-13-2005, 07:00 AM

This is definitely the dealer's fault.

I have only played in casinos a couple times, but when I play in a b&m game, I bring along a rock to the table(an actual mass of stone, not a tight player), and I put it on top of my cards to protect them. Whenever I make a major decision I put both my hands over my cards so the dealer has to rip them out of my hands if she wants them.

Casinos are full of overzealous, incompetent dealers who will muck your hand if you are not careful. They just don't give a [censored]. Players should be aware. This has not cost me a pot as of yet but I'm sure it will eventually.

Just one of the reasons I love online play better, besides not having to tip a dealer and not having to protect your hand.

This dealer should be fired, or if the casino insisted on awarding the pot to the Queens, the casino should have taken the equivalent pot amount out of the dealer's paycheck.

bigfishead

02-13-2005, 08:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, when two players are all in, how do you know that the dealer isn't grabbing your cards to position them in the middle of the table before dealing the turn/river?

After the dealer has your cards in hand, they could go in the muck just as fast.

[/ QUOTE ]

The dealer gets to touch my cards after he gives me the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even in a tourney?

[/ QUOTE ]

You ONLY see that crap on TV, at the FINAL table, during a race. That is not done in live games or any other normal tournaments....it's just for show. Remember, the tv camera is above.

bigfishead

02-13-2005, 09:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
my understanding of standard poker rules is that once a hand has hit the muck, it's dead.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a common misunderstanding. When a hand touches the muck it is fouled and MAY be declared dead. There are probbaly a few places where they don't know any better and have a rule that your hand is dead dor touching the muck, but the standards rules would allow a hand turned face up and seen by all to play.

Randy Refeld

[/ QUOTE ]

This refers to the pretty standard rule: "CARDS SPEAK"

Face up they have spoken.

The one thing that bothers me a little about this thread is some of the slight "dealer bashing". Who are we to say the dealer did not hear the "CALL" from the aces? Many things could have been going on at the time. Such as another player distracting the dealer and saying "dealer, here's my BB for the next hand I'm just grabbing a cup of coffee." or other such things. We dont know. No matter how clearly the player said it.

However, this ruling pretty much sucks. I am really starting to believe there are fewer floor staffs that know what they are doing then there are dealers. Most likely it's because casinos pay floor staff junk wages in 90% of all card rooms. Hence you get what you pay for.

Last week I was offered to take over a shift on the floor and refused. Simply put I asked them why I should move up and take a cut in pay. And I promise you I am the most qualified and would be best for the room and the players as well as the rest of the dealers. (please pardon the small bit of ego)

bigfishead

02-13-2005, 09:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This is not a tournament. There is no reason either player should flip his cards up because he is all in until the hand is over. Then it's the bettor's responsibility to show his hand at showdown and if player b has him beat he shows his hand. LISTEN to Diablo: get the chips give the cards up. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

It's really no big deal to turn them up once you have said call. All other actions are meaningless from this point on. Just flip'em up and let the dealer put out the turn & river. Only in the very large games with some of the more famous "pukes" do they slow roll or sit and stair at the board without showing as they figure out how badly they got beat or drawn out on.

And the #1 most important rule to me is "CARDS SPEAK" in regards to this situation. They do have cameras also. and it only takes 5 minutes to call in the roll back. The table can wait in a situation like this if needed.

OR as happened with me once, I was very tired and was awarded the pot when both hands had been shown. me in 2 seat him in 9. The dealer was dealing the next hand out when someone said "hey didnt the 9 seat have "xxxxx"? They called the floor and the floor asked me if it was ok with me he would check the camera. when he returned he said I should not have gotten the pot and I had ZERO problem with it and counted out the full amount of the pot. It's ethical, correct, and just the right thing to do for the betterment of the game. And yes I did win plenty from these players often enough that I didnt want to piss them off.

bigfishead

02-13-2005, 09:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This is definitely the dealer's fault.

I have only played in casinos a couple times, but when I play in a b&m game, I bring along a rock to the table(an actual mass of stone, not a tight player), and I put it on top of my cards to protect them. Whenever I make a major decision I put both my hands over my cards so the dealer has to rip them out of my hands if she wants them.

Casinos are full of overzealous, incompetent dealers who will muck your hand if you are not careful. They just don't give a [censored]. Players should be aware. This has not cost me a pot as of yet but I'm sure it will eventually.

Just one of the reasons I love online play better, besides not having to tip a dealer and not having to protect your hand.

This dealer should be fired, or if the casino insisted on awarding the pot to the Queens, the casino should have taken the equivalent pot amount out of the dealer's paycheck.

[/ QUOTE ]

you're an idiot. another "know it all been playing online for a year that has no clue"

You dont know that it was the dealers "fault". have you ever in your lifetime mis-heard anything? I love it when players get to deal to the dealers in a freebie house employees tournament. It's the indignant ones that always get pulled out of a game to deal to the dealers. Sometimes....most of the time...they learn a new respect for the dealers. Especially after 3 screwups in the first hand!

EDIT: I need to apologize for calling you an idiot...I was just irritated at what I consider a totally bad idea from you that is groundless. The real problem was the floor. Things like this can happen at anytime.

Hell I once had an absolutely violent sneeze in a large Pot Limit game and lost 3/4 of the deck after the flop in the process. and this pot was LARGE...5 way action....during a major tournament with some of the biggest asses in the country. They wouldnt even let me call the floor....they all agreed to chop $500 a piece off the pot and race for the remaining $1500 or so after a shuffle of the stub and muck. NOBODY complained...in fact they all said the same thing when I was apologizing...."dont worry about it...stuff happens".

bigfishead

02-13-2005, 09:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is not a tournament. There is no reason either player should flip his cards up because he is all in until the hand is over. Then it's the bettor's responsibility to show his hand at showdown and if player b has him beat he shows his hand. LISTEN to Diablo: get the chips give the cards up. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

What about my post made you think that I was under the impression this happened during a tournament? I was just asking a follow up question. Like, fine, in cash games you can keep control of your cards, but what about a tourney?

In tournaments you'll see players flip their hands and dealers reposition the cards. My point was these same mistakes can happen in a tourney just as they can happen in a cash game. So if you are playing in a tourney where it happens to be standard for the dealer to touch your cards before the pot is pushed to you, then how can you prevent the dealer from accidently mucking your hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

read my othe post ...it IS NOT STANDARD to put the cards up in the middle of the table at any time anywhere....EXCEPT on TV. The camera is above, it's always a race situation, it's for TV.

Lawrence Ng

02-13-2005, 09:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Floor Decision:
The floor person comes over and after hearing the story says "THE POT HAS TO BE GIVEN TO THE QUEENS SINCE HIS HAND IS STILL THERE". What???? They're not even going to chop it. They're giving the entire pot to the queens?????????? This is rediculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, you wouldn't want to even know what I would to do the floorman if I had that hand with AA and this happened...

[ QUOTE ]
After argueing for a little bit they gave the entire pot to the queens guy (this was double annoying since the aces guy was good and the queens guy was atrocious). After seeing this (combined with an earlier dealer mistake) I got up from the table and left.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes if I had QQ and I saw the other person had AA, I would have chopped it gladly taking 50 percent when I am actually a huge huge dog here. But knowing that rules are rules, the guys with Queens would have his right to keep the pot and there's nothing I can do about it.

Lawrence

Al_Capone_Junior

02-13-2005, 12:22 PM

Randy is absolutely correct here. There are a lot of real jerks out there who will try to abuse the supposed rule of "once they hit the muck they are dead." However, that's NOT the ACTUAL rule. They MAY be declared dead, but any floorman with any real sense of the proper way to do things wouldn't have declared THIS hand dead.

Even if some nit was trying to abuse this supposed non-rule by saying "they touched the muck, they are dead," there's always my favorite rule to fall back on...

"Management reserves the right to make decisions in the spirit of fairness, even if a strict interpretation of the rules may indicate a different ruling. "

However, let's not always use my favorite rule as justification to do whatever we wish. There's a more clearly applicable rule* here...

"2. Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved at management's discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. We will make an extra effort to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of incorrect information given to the player. "

This rule would easily extend into the realm of "cards mucked incorrectly due to dealer error."

This terrible decision clearly shows that the floorman hasn't done his homework when it comes to learning both the rules and the proper ways to resolve disputes/problems. The dealer is equally to blame here, they should have been reprimanded/coached by the floorperson regarding this collosal mistake.

I certainly know what it's like to be new on the floor, and what it's like to have to resolve some really difficult problems. However, I study the rules in detail, and converse and discuss scenarios with other floormen and players all the time. It's the only way to get better, continuous study. Unfortunately, not many people are really in this type of mindset (probably they didn't spend enough time in college). But you wouldn't work in a laboratory or be a nurse or doctor without continuing education, and you certainly shouldn't be a dealer or floorman without continuing education either. No matter how good you get, you can always learn more, and if you're so arrogant that you don't realize this, then you AREN'T as good as you think you are.

al

* source = http://www.lasvegasvegas.com/poker/rrpprinter.php

Al_Capone_Junior

02-13-2005, 12:33 PM

During events like the WPT and the world series, the dealers put the hands of two all-in players face up and move them into the center of the table FOR DRAMATIC EFFECT, AND FOR THE CAMERAS. However, in a REAL GAME, I WON'T GIVE UP MY CARDS TILL THEY PUSH ME THE MONEY. Anyone who DOES give up their cards is asking for trouble, particularly in today's poker environment where there are many new dealers.

So when I give poker lessons to beginners, the first three rules are all the same rule... PROTECT YOUR HAND.

I tell them these three things...

1. how to properly view your cards so the other players don't see them
2. to KEEP A CHIP ON YOUR CARDS when waiting for your turn to act
3. AT THE SHOWDOWN, TURN YOUR CARDS FACE UP AND DON'T LET GO OF THEM UNTIL THEY PUSH YOU THE MONEY

AL

Al_Capone_Junior

02-13-2005, 12:41 PM

http://www.lasvegasvegas.com/poker/rules.php

Anyone who deals or floors should print this out and learn it inside and out...

http://www.lasvegasvegas.com/poker/rrpprinter.php
(printer friendly version, about 50 pages or so).

Most cardrooms should throw away their rulebook and just use this one. With the exception of a few very small nit-picks, I think the entire document is absolutely fantastic.

al

Al_Capone_Junior

02-13-2005, 01:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
But there's one thing that I'm a nit about. The dealer doesn't get my cards until I get the money.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not being a nit, this is just good poker.

al

Your Mom

02-13-2005, 01:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But there's one thing that I'm a nit about. The dealer doesn't get my cards until I get the money.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not being a nit, this is just good poker.
al

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. In fact, I tell other players to keep their cards until they get the pot.

TomBrooks

02-13-2005, 03:46 PM

I'm going to make sure I do that, when I go to a B&M. -TomBk

Dead

02-13-2005, 05:00 PM

Actually I've only been playing online for about 8 months, but that doesn't preclude me from pointing out a bad dealer when i see one.

If you cannot see that this was a huge dealer error and that it was entirely her fault, then I'm not the idiot.

-Dead

detroitplayer

02-13-2005, 06:25 PM

I've had the dealers touch the cards before and I've never played a tourney that was shown on TV. I thought that was just how they did it, although sometimes they wouldn't.

SORRY!

Dead

02-13-2005, 06:31 PM

I'd think it would be easier to fix in a major tournament, at least, because then it's the tournament director's decision, and not some floorperson's.

I think if it was somebody like Matt Savage that he would be more lenient.

smoore

02-13-2005, 06:41 PM

Here is a link to nicely formatted TDA and RRoP booklets (http://www.homepokertourney.com/rules_booklet.htm)

TakeMeToTheRiver

02-14-2005, 10:39 AM

[NEVER MIND -- for some reason I missed the 20 earlier replies that already said this... oops.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, when two players are all in, how do you know that the dealer isn't grabbing your cards to position them in the middle of the table before dealing the turn/river?

After the dealer has your cards in hand, they could go in the muck just as fast.

[/ QUOTE ]

The dealer gets to touch my cards after he gives me the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even in a tourney?

[/ QUOTE ]

Watch TV much?

They pull the cards in and "position them" on TV so that all the cards can be seen together by the camera. It is not common practice (that I have ever seen) for a dealer to pull your cards in and "position them" in any other cash or tournament game. You may be required to expose your cards in the tournament situation, but you should keep them right in front of you -- preferrably with a hand on them.

VinnyTheFish

02-14-2005, 11:33 AM

My thoughts are simple. The employees not only F**ked up in the worst way possible, but made it ten times worse not fixing it when they had an easy chance to.

Now here's what irks my chicken - Guy QQ - Ok, he wins the pot. How in his right mind does he not do the right thing? We are all there to win. We are all there to hunt fish, but in no way will I ever take a dollar unethically or by a wrong decision on the staff's part.

Guy QQ should have collected the chips and give 50% back to AA on the spot - even if they both had to give up their seat to do so.

Guy AA should have gone balls out to get this right – more so - demanding that the video be checked.

That is just my two cents.

I would like to know who the floor person and dealer were since I will be there on Sunday and Monday.

The Fish

Randy_Refeld

02-14-2005, 11:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I will be there on Sunday and Monday.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why rooms go with who will work the cheapest on the floor instead of getting people that are good on the floor. Why would they pay more to get someone good if the players will play anyway?

Randy Refeld

VinnyTheFish

02-14-2005, 02:33 PM

You lost me. I think I get your point - cheapest employees save them money, therefore the best are not always there.

I was just curious who they were because I play there a bit and know most of the crew (more so by face, not name).

lehighguy

02-14-2005, 03:05 PM

It was an indian women as the floor person.

The QQ was a total degenerate. Looked like one of the Atlantic city locals that had just gotten his welfare or McDonalds check and cam down to the casino to get rich quick. Had just spent a lot of time on the roullete wheel and then brought his winnings down to the table. He wasn't about to do the honorable thing. The said thing is the AA guy was a standup gentlemen and I think he would have done the right thing (heck he might have pushed him the whole pot).