Gave up too early with top 2?

[TMFS9]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB calls, BB calls, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (12 SB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+2 calls, CO folds, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, SB calls, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, UTG+2 calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Turn: (14.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero folds, UTG+2 calls, Button folds.



The button in the hand was 24/7 and the small blind was new to the game at 27/0.

[Fat Nicky]

Even if you're behind, you are about 10-1 to fill up getting 15-1.

[mr pink]

getting 15.5 to 1 i'd probably call, it's tough with the button acting behind you but i think you can peel one off here and try to spike a king or a ten.

[TMFS9]

With the button raising preflop and 3 betting the flop, the pot odds are laying you 15.5-1 currently but aren't your effective odds worse. I mean it would be a pretty bad situation to call then the button raise, then the small blind 3 bet.

[Redd]

[ QUOTE ]
getting 15.5 to 1 i'd probably call, it's tough with the button acting behind you but i think you can peel one off here and try to spike a king or a ten.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then would you check-fold or check-call the river UI?

[RED_RAIN]

If you are stating 24/7 and 27/0 as VPIP and PFR then these stats mean very little post flop. Only really could tell what type of hands such as only pockets or Axs. Both are high enough that they play a lot of hands.

I'm not 100% sure I love your cap on the flop, if you feel you know someone is on a flush draw, your odds will go up a lot more on the turn if it doesn't hit and being you have no spade, you should be thinking of it.

I would have called the 3 bet on the flop, then check/raise the turn with no spade.

I'm gonna put the button on AK, AA, and rare but maybe KK.

But for the way you played, there is no way I lay it down on the turn for one here. I call, and if it's raised behind, then I fold if I'm not getting correct odds, too lazy to figure them out and others are better.

Remember, it's not a huge deal to call one and fold to a raise behind on any street.

I don't think it's a huge mistake that you folded the to the turn bet as it seems SB really wants to represent the flush and that the button will see the showdown, but I wouldn't have.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
Gave up too early with top 2?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. At least you have odds to draw.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
Then would you check-fold or check-call the river UI?

[/ QUOTE ]
If the turn is unraised I would call. If button raises the turn and I'm closing the action by callng 1BB, I'll call. I I'm faced with 2 (somehow) I'll fold.

[TMFS9]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not 100% sure I love your cap on the flop, if you feel you know someone is on a flush draw, your odds will go up a lot more on the turn if it doesn't hit and being you have no spade, you should be thinking of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if a flush draw is out there aren't you passing up a pretty high equity edge by not capping the flop with 4 callers?

[jeffseib]

I would check and call to SD with this one. Top two pair is going to win MUCH more than one out of 14 times, especially in Party 2/4. Plus, you have the odds to call: 11:1 you will spike a K or a T. For all you know, SB only has pair of 4s (I have seen this happen!). Don't let fear rule your game.

[RED_RAIN]

I just believe you will make up a lot more on the turn when your bet is nearly gaurenteed from the button the way he is playing and you feel that you have him beat most of the time.

No one with a flush draw is going anywhere, they aren't even making a bad mistake if they cold call any amounts of bets as they are close to 2:1 to get their flush draw.

This is a concept IMO, that you can't protect your hand on the flop, but your value of your hand to a safe card goes up significantly and then making them pay 2 or more bets on the turn is making them make a large mistake.

By pumping on the flop, you give them odds to chase maybe even 2 cold on the turn with the implied odds they will get with the river.

[foofighter]

Maybe im too tight but UTG im not playing this hand and capping the flop is giving better odds to others as people have mentioned.

[crunchy1]

W/o knowing any specifics of your game this is a close call PF exactly because of situations like yours. You get raised behind you and that makes the rest of the hand difficult to play out of position after the flop (unless you hit a monster - trips, flush, boat). I don't like to play hands like this unless I have pretty good reads on most of my opponents at the table.

When you don't have good reads, I think you have to take this to showdown in a pot this size. Folding this hand on the turn is a big mistake. Two possible lines would be:

(a) just calling down and getting to showdown, although you might fold the river to a fourth spade or raise if you catch.

(b) raise the turn, fold to a 3-bet. Check behind on the river UI.

(notes: I like line (b) a lot better if you hadn't capped the flop. Even though button 3-bet the flop (and not trying to be results-oriented given we know he folded the turn) I think you're safe to raise the turn here given his PF raise. His PF raise combined with the flop 3-bet looks a lot to me like he's protecting AK or a big pocket pair (not likely KK/TT because there's already 4 cards out). I think a turn raise will many times push out UTG and Button and leave you heads up with SB who will turn over second best hands enough of the time for this to be +EV and if you're 3-bet it's an easy fold)

... is line (b) too lag??

Also, I think you would've got better responses if you would've stopped the post at your decision. Cut the hand history after SB bets the turn..

[RED_RAIN]

If most games, especially 2/4, unless the table is too tight (move tables), I'm playing this hand UTG.

[RED_RAIN]

[ QUOTE ]
(b) raise the turn, fold to a 3-bet. Check behind on the river UI.

[/ QUOTE ]

The button won't fold AA or AK if he has the Ace of spades. You will get 3 bet by a flush, and just called by any J high flush or lower. You sometimes will get 3 bet by a set by an ultra-aggressive.

I personally really dislike this thought, seems too fancy, for players who won't get it nor make the folds you are looking for.

Plus the chance a spades comes on the river even if your raise goes uncontested, you lose those pots too. You are a slim chance at pulling off this play in the profit.