Mistake in Fundamentals of Craps??

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Although I realize that craps is not beatable, I have always enjoyed the game anyway. It's an entertaining game, and the edge is really low for the house (on certain bets). I needed a quick way to explain craps to my guests, so I picked up "fundamentals of craps" by Mason and Lynne.

When I got to page 37 I noticed this:

"The craps-eleven bet, also known as the C-E bet, is a wager that a 2, 3, 11 or 12 will appear on the next roll of the dice. If a 2, 3 or 12 is thrown, which is craps, the bet is paid off at 3-to-1; if an 11 is rolled, the bet is paid off at 7-to-1."

Well, the C-E bet is actually two different wagers on the any craps, and the eleven. So if you throw the stickman $2, he will put $1 on the "E" and $1 on the "C." If you roll an eleven, you'll get 14:1 on your eleven bet dollar, but lose your craps bet dollar, which is why you would say that the C-E bet pays 7:1 if you roll an eleven. However, if you roll craps, you'll get 7:1 on your craps bet dollar, but lose your eleven bet dollar, thus you'd actually get 3.5:1 on your C-E bet, not the 3:1 stated in the book.

al

[Terry]

There are two sets of odds commonly used on Craps tables.

Downtown odds: 11 (and any two different number combination) pays 16 for 1. 2 and 12 (and any other “hard way” one roll bet pays 31 for 1.

Strip odds: 11 (and others) pays 15 for1. 2 and 12 pay 30 for 1.

“Any Craps) pays 8 for 1 everywhere. There are some Strip casinos using downtown odds and downtown joints using strip odds; the names are historical.

Odds are always written on the layout in X for 1 form simply because it makes it sound like more. 15 for 1 sounds like more than 14 to 1.

The procedure for the stickman is to total all your winning bets, subtract all your losing bets, and pay you the difference, leaving all your bets “up to win again.”

Sooo ... you bet $2 on C&E ... roll is 3 ... you win $8 ... stickman subtracts your $2 bet(s), leaves you up to win again, and pays you $6 or 3 to 1.

You bet $2 on C&E ... roll is 11 ... you win $16 (downtown) or $15 (Strip) ... stickman subtracts your $2 bet(s), leaves you up to win again, and pays you $14 (7 to 1) or $13 (6.5 to 1).

The 3 to 1 figure isn’t actually the payoff for a C&E bet when Craps rolls, it is, more properly, a “key” the dealer uses to determine the amount to pay the player. It is easier than trying to figure out what a $127 C&E pays. There are similar keys for more complex prop bets like the Horn bet and World bet. The way to think of it is: there is no such thing as a C&E bet – it is an Any Craps bet AND an Eleven bet.

[byronkincaid]

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Although I realize that craps is not beatable

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Really? (http://bj21.com/ads/wong_on_dice/ad.html) I don't know much about craps but there was a huge arguement on bj21 after Wong went on one of these (http://www.goldentouchcraps.com/) courses and after a lot of practise said he had an edge at craps. The math guys who post on his site didn't believe him so they arranged a bet of I think $11k or so over what they thought was a statistically significant trial. Wong won. So is Wong pulling a scam to sell an overpriced article or is he writing the definitive book on craps which will rate alongside his definitive book on blackjack. There do seem to be some big time advantage players who are getting very annoyed at him for bringing this to a wider audience. Personly I wouldn't bet against Wong

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi byronkincaid:

Craps is an unbeatable game as long as you play it as designed. Didn't Wong deveop a dice control shot?

Best wishes,
Mason

[byronkincaid]

Yeah, I didn't make that clear, he's trying to control the dice.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi junior:

I don't know the answer. FOC was written approximateky 12 years ago and I've forgotten what most of these bets even are. Perhaps we were right when we wrote it but the C-E bet has now taken on a different meaning, or perhaps we just got it wrong.

best wishes,
mason

[Terry]

You got it right, Mason.

The confusion was the concept of thinking about C&E as one bet rather than as two separate bets, combined with the casino procedure of deducting all the player’s other losing prop bets from the payoff and leaving them up.

Saying that C&E pays 3 to 1 is a shortcut to finding the proper amount to pay the player for his winning Any Craps bet, including replacing his losing bet on Eleven and assuming he has bet the same amount on each.

Technically the payoff is arrived at by a process more like: $25 C&E ... roll is 3 ... half of $25 is bet on Any Craps ... $12.50 times 8 = $100 ... minus $12.50 to leave the Any Craps bet up for the next roll ... minus $12.50 to leave the Eleven bet up for the next roll = $75 which just happens to be 3 to 1.

While a player who only bets C&E and always bets equal amounts can get away with knowing only the 3 to 1 and 7 to 1 figures, the dealer must know how the payout is derived for those times when the player also makes other bets, such as C&E and any Seven, or $3 C&E high on the C ($2 Any Craps and $1 Eleven.)

Getting the hang of handling prop bets is a major hurdle for beginning Craps dealers. There are lots of shortcuts but they must know how to figure out complicated bets when no “key” is available.

All in all, aside from a little semantic difficulty that would not concern the book’s target audience, you got it right. A player betting a lump sum on C&E does indeed get paid 3 to 1 for Craps and 7 to 1 for Eleven.

[sthief09]

I watched a show on the Travel channel on cheating in casinos. One of the casinos now employs an ex-cheater who showed some of his tricks. One of them was being able to roll a 7 every time with 2 dice. They were standard casino dice too, not trick dice or anything like that. It was pretty cool to watch.

[bobbyi]

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One of the casinos now employs an ex-cheater who showed some of his tricks. One of them was being able to roll a 7 every time with 2 dice. They were standard casino dice too, not trick dice or anything like that.

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What can casinos do about people who can do stuff like this? Is the dice manipulation detectable by watching th person (other than by the fact that he wins a lot)?

[scatter shot]

Good analysis.

Of course, bottom line is that the C/E is a pretty bad bet (due to the vig) unless it is part of a hedge play.

[KenProspero]

I've gotten a number of arguments as to whether there is anything such as a 'hedge' play at the Craps table that makes sense.

Though many may disagree, I feel each bet is independent and stands on it's own. I don't think that the overall -ev to the game is reduced by making these bets. (I don't take "insurance" when I have Blackjack either, for the same reasons).

That being said, when I want to turn my mind off and have fun, I will play craps -- usually pass/come with the odds, and an occasional prop bet, just for the fun of it.