Confusing KQ hand at Party 2/4 [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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DeathDonkey

02-12-2005, 07:14 AM

I recently sat down so I had no reads on anyone but the table seemed in general loose and not that aggressive. The flop call seemed automatic, should I have considered raising the turn? Anyone go for overcalls on the river? Is the cap too much against an unknown?

Thanks for any comments,
DeathDonkey

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif. MP3 posts a blind of $2.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, Hero raises, MP3 (poster) 3-bets, CO caps, 3 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (18.50 SB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
MP1 bets, Hero calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (11.25 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
MP1 bets, Hero calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

River: (15.25 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
MP1 bets, Hero raises, MP3 folds, CO folds, MP1 3-bets, Hero caps, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 23.25 BB

cold_cash

02-12-2005, 10:09 AM

I don't raise the turn because I think at that point you're drawing.

There's no reason to isolate yourself against MP1 who, I imagine, has at least a Jack; I doubt he comes out guns blazing on the flop and turn after all that pre-flop action without one.

The river seems like the interesting street. I'm not sure about going for overcalls, but I'd probably play it like you did and hope to see AJ or QJ. (And kick myself when he turns over KJ.)

colgin

02-12-2005, 02:05 PM

In reading this I gave credit for the fact that MP3 was a poster and therefore his three-betting and CO capping requirements might have been loosened somewhat. However, this was offset by the fact that Hero said the table seemed to be loose and passive. So I ended up assuming fairly typical three-betting and caping hands.

So, on the flop, when MP1 bets into the field, I have to think that Hero is in pretty bad shape. I really can't imagine MP1 not having a Jack here, but even if he doesn't, Hero could still be behind MP3 and/or CO. I started wondering if a fold was in order, even though Hero had top pair and the pot was very large. That couldn't be right, could it. So I ran some Poker Stove numbers giving MP3 and CO reasonable (IMO) holdings and throwing in the possibility (which I consider very unlikely) that MP1 could be betting a straight draw in addition to a Jx hand. About the best I could do for Hero was 7.5% pot equity on the flop. Which means Hero can proceed if the flop is not going to get raised and re-raised after he calls. In that regard, on the one hand, given the pre-flop action, I could see one or more raises after Hero calls. On the other, MP1's bet could freeze up the rest of the table as each player thinks (assuming they don't have a Jack or KK) that they are either ahead or way behind and gain nothing from raising.

So I wondered whether the right play was to call, as Hero did, hoping it doesn't get raised behind him, but to throw away the hand if it si two or more bets back to him after his initial call. I am also curious if anybody just folds right away.

HajiShirazu

02-12-2005, 03:07 PM

I can't see folding the flop with top pair and two backdoors in a 20 bet pot. I concede that you are usually going to be losing here to a jack, and that it can be raised behind you and often will be.
The river would at first glance seem like an overcall situation but it just seems so wussy to put the guy on the boat. Other than KJ, what can he have? Plus you have one of the kings already- this is actually what tips it in favor of the raise IMO.
I think I would call the river against an unknown.