preventing heavy losses w/ premium pockets

[minwoo]

I would like some input how you guys approach this problem:

In the early levels, when the blinds are 10/15, 10/20, 15/30
you are dealth AA - JJ in early position or mid position.

Now, you want to raise enough to make the trash holdings fold. But also, you want to raise an amount that makes you some money with the hand. I raise about 4 - 6 times the BB, about 65 chips at 10/15, 80 - 120 chips at 10/20, etc.

Now the problem...what I find happening alot is that lower pockets pairs (22 - 88 usually) call these raises in hopes of hitting a set. And at these early blind levels, calling the preflop raises only costs them 10% - 15% of their stack at the most, so many more players are willing to call.
If the flop comes all undercards, it's really hard not to lose alot of chips. I end up being the first one to push all-in on flop if I am going to be low stacked. Or I bet a good amount....about 3/4 of the pot on the flop and end up pushing on the turn if fourth street is another undercard.

Very often, these inferior pocket pairs make their set postflop and I end up losing most or all of my chips.

So, how would you guys approach this problem? Just grind your teeth when it happens and realize they were a long shot in hitting their set and got lucky? Or...make super huge preflop raises in early/mid position and make it a huge error for the lower PP to call?

[raptor517]

limp in, and if someone raises, call with JJ or QQ, and reraise with KK and AA. thats what i do.

[minwoo]

Okay, you limp in w/ AA, 6 others limp in behind you and the BB checks...then what? Forced to throw away AA post flop if there is significant action...and this is VERY hard to do. I think limping in w/ AA & KK is called for ONLY when you are very sure there is going to be a raise behind you.

You have AA and limp and after a bunch of additional limpers, if the BB checks, there is going to be no overcards on the flop...and unless you hit a set, you are very unsure about your hand. Even if there are few or no limpers at all, what do you do if the BB check-raises you for a good portion of your chips? Who knows if he got served a BB special. The strength of raising w/ a premium hand is that you can put your opponent on a range of hands once he calls and then analyze the board accordingly (assuming of course that your opponent isn't a complete maniac).

Limping in w/ QQ or JJ is out of the question I think. They ARE premium hands but just too weak to be trapping with preflop.

[JoeTable]

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, you limp in w/ AA, 6 others limp in behind you and the BB checks...then what? Forced to throw away AA post flop if there is significant action...and this is VERY hard to do. I think limping in w/ AA & KK is called for ONLY when you are very sure there is going to be a raise behind you.

You have AA and limp and after a bunch of additional limpers, if the BB checks, there is going to be no overcards on the flop...and unless you hit a set, you are very unsure about your hand. Even if there are few or no limpers at all, what do you do if the BB check-raises you for a good portion of your chips? Who knows if he got served a BB special. The strength of raising w/ a premium hand is that you can put your opponent on a range of hands once he calls and then analyze the board accordingly (assuming of course that your opponent isn't a complete maniac).

Limping in w/ QQ or JJ is out of the question I think. They ARE premium hands but just too weak to be trapping with preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

So...what kind of answer are you looking for then? If you want to bet QQ-AA like they're premium hands, do it. Sometimes you'll win only the blinds, sometimes you'll win a lot, sometimes you'll go broke. Or...you can limp, fold on a threatening board, or to a lot of aggression, and keep playing.

You can go broke on any hand. Aces included.

[Pepsquad]

If your standard line is "raise 3XBB pre-flop, and push the flop or turn to undercards" then you will continue to be very frustrated.

I like your standard pre-flop raise. On the flop with undercards, fire out another 1-2X pot sized bet. IF YOU GET CALLED, SOMEBODY IS TRYING TO TELL YOU SOMETHING! Instead of ramming and jamming, check the turn and fold to additional aggression. Or if you REALLY want to be sure you're making the proper fold, check-raise the turn and if called - check/fold unimproved on the river and if
re-raised, you know your opponent is very strong. Will you sometimes lay down the better hand in these situations playing them differently? Yes. But you will also live to fight another day.

By jamming your stack on the turn, you'll RARELY get called by a worse hand (other than the occasion dumb-ass overplaying a flopped top pair). Try taking more of a finesse approach with big PP's early on and I think it will lead to less frustrations.

Take care,

Pep.

[minwoo]

I'm intrigued with the replies implying that the proper solution is to learn to fold to the set. The thing is, without a high stack and the blinds rapidly increasing, there isn't much time to throw away these holdings when the chances that your opponent has weaker holding is high. As for jamming my chips in on the turn, I don't do that mindlessly. I am just trying to protect my hand from draws and such. Being able to fold AA post flop would make alot more sense to me later in the game when you do have chips to play and survive with. But in the early levels, you have to accumulate chips to survive. How do you accumulate chips when you are folding AA and KK post flop, especially if they are actually the better hand. I am considering the idea of check-raising on the turn and going into check-fold mode on the river as Pepsquad suggested (does this work well for you?) but again, that check-raise on the turn would be a very risky strategy if it makes you pot committed. And the opponent will likely throw in a big juicy bet on the turn, whether he has nothing or has a set.

I was prepared to just clench my fist and realize that an overpair running into a set is just an unavoidable part of poker, but there does seem to be different approaches to this problem.

Can you reallly fold AA and KK post flop and turn that into a long term profitable play?
Please continue offering input!

[Pepsquad]

"The thing is, without a high stack and the blinds rapidly increasing, there isn't much time to throw away these holdings when the chances that your opponent has weaker holding is high."

WRONG and WRONG. With blinds at 5/10 up to 25-50, you have all the time in the world. And we are not concerned with what your opponent is holding that he would fold to your bet. We are concerned with what your opponent will CALL your all-in bet with.

---------------------------------

"Being able to fold AA post flop would make alot more sense to me later in the game when you do have chips to play and survive with."

WRONG. Typically, the later into the tourney it gets, the less correct it would be to fold AA or KK (all other conditions being equal).

--------------------------------

I am considering the idea of check-raising on the turn and going into check-fold mode on the river as Pepsquad suggested (does this work well for you?)

Not always. Often, I am called on the turn and bet into again on the river and fold. BUT, I fold, confident that my opponent can beat a pair (without yet having a read on said opponent).

---------------------------------

Can you really fold AA and KK post flop and turn that into a long term profitable play?

YES. But this can't be a cookie-cutter approach. If you try finding a way to play ANY hand in ANY given situation by answering "if/then" statements, you'll be in trouble. As always, you need to take many other factors into consideration.

Pep.

[raptor517]

if u limp, and 100 people limp behind you, and you get action on the flop, do you really think you are ahead with ONE PAIR? who cares if its a premium hand. in a sng, hands dont even really matter. its all how you play your stack and the blinds. period. im willing to bet that i could post at least a 10% roi in the 50+5s without playing the first 3 rounds. probably 15% wouldnt be too terrible difficult.

anyways, you should learn not to get attatched to aces and kings. they can be beaten all too easily. especially with 5-7 way action. in EP that is the only way i will play. limp raise. period. i cant see playing AA or KK any other way in ep. feel free to change my mind. you need to not risk chips early. its a waste. even with 'premium' hands.

[Pepsquad]

[ QUOTE ]
if u limp, and 100 people limp behind you, and you get action on the flop, do you really think you are ahead with ONE PAIR? who cares if its a premium hand. in a sng, hands dont even really matter. its all how you play your stack and the blinds. period. im willing to bet that i could post at least a 10% roi in the 50+5s without playing the first 3 rounds. probably 15% wouldnt be too terrible difficult.

anyways, you should learn not to get attatched to aces and kings. they can be beaten all too easily. especially with 5-7 way action. in EP that is the only way i will play. limp raise. period. i cant see playing AA or KK any other way in ep. feel free to change my mind. you need to not risk chips early. its a waste. even with 'premium' hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

With all due respect, you just explained why you SHOULD raise in EP with big PP's. It's so your AA doesn't have to hold up 5-7 handed post-flop.

Pep.

[raptor517]

bah, here we go. ok, if you get 5-7 people in there and no one raises, that is the risk you take. if you get heavy action on the flop, you simply fold and get away from it for 15 chips. if you cant do that you cant win sngs. period. if you make a decent raise, say 55 to go on 10-15 lvl, you have NO IDEA where you are at. none. you could very easily get 5-7 callers even up to the 55 lvl making that raise. that is why limp reraising is the best way to play the big pairs. make sense?

[Pepsquad]

[ QUOTE ]
bah, here we go. ok, if you get 5-7 people in there and no one raises, that is the risk you take. if you get heavy action on the flop, you simply fold and get away from it for 15 chips. if you cant do that you cant win sngs. period. if you make a decent raise, say 55 to go on 10-15 lvl, you have NO IDEA where you are at. none. you could very easily get 5-7 callers even up to the 55 lvl making that raise. that is why limp reraising is the best way to play the big pairs. make sense?

[/ QUOTE ]

You play your big hands like my grandmother drives on the interstate. So afraid of a wreck that you actually CAUSE it.

[raptor517]

wow, ok, i guess i have no idea what im talking about. keep raising it to 50 with AA utg, see what your roi is after 500 sngs. good luck to ya.

[Pepsquad]

[ QUOTE ]
wow, ok, i guess i have no idea what im talking about. keep raising it to 50 with AA utg, see what your roi is after 500 sngs. good luck to ya.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is all I ask, is that when people are wrong they are willing to admit it.

Pep.

[raptor517]

LOL. this is hilarious. tell me, what level do you play at, how many sngs have you played, and what is your roi? i mean seriously. im not wrong, lol.

[Pepsquad]

[ QUOTE ]
LOL. this is hilarious. tell me, what level do you play at, how many sngs have you played, and what is your roi? i mean seriously. im not wrong, lol.

[/ QUOTE ]

$10 SNG's. About 700 at that level. Just over 25%. I just think you're giving up too much when it isn't raised behind you. I do like your limp re-raise line if you find yourself at an unusally aggressive table, but I'm not limping unless I'm absolutely positive I'll get the opportunity for that re-raise.

[hovemag]

I am assuming we are at the $11s. Simple for me 95% of the time with AA & KK I am putting 150 -250 in preflop and pushing post flop if I get a caller. With QQ and JJ it depends

[hovemag]

[ QUOTE ]
But in the early levels, you have to accumulate chips to survive.


[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this. Early levels are about conserving your chips so you can prepare to start attacking the blinds in levels 4 and 5.

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
I am assuming we are at the $11s. Simple for me 95% of the time with AA & KK I am putting 150 -250 in preflop and pushing post flop if I get a caller. With QQ and JJ it depends

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. You can put in less at party since everyone has fewer chips.

The people that call and try to flop a set are calling because of their implied odds. It doesn't matter if you bet 3xBB or 6xBB. If they think they can break you if they flop a set, they will call up to 10% of their stack to do it.

To counteract this, raise more than 10% of your stack. It doesn't matter what the blind is. In the low limit games, morons will call you anyway, and they will be incorrect to do so.

[David100]

Raptor, Why not protect your hand with a raise pre flop? i hate it when people can draw down on me and see flops with a small pocket pair and marginal hands.

One of the main reasons i don't limp AA early on is because my post flop play is not good enough to fold etc. I would find it hard to make a decision whether the person has a medium pocket pair, has made trips or is drawing to two high cards. Its hard to read when you have just started to play against different people.

I don't often see people limp a JJ-AA near the start, it is suicide in my opinion! better to be aggressive and stay in.

David

[Mr_J]

Well I just had a KK and AA busted in level 1 for 2 sngs. That's poker. Most of the time I'll take their chips, but sometimes they will take mine. Longterm the numbers will heavily be in your favour so don't sweat it.

"Now the problem...what I find happening alot is that lower pockets pairs (22 - 88 usually) call these raises in hopes of hitting a set."

This is not a problem. You want them to do this.

"Just grind your teeth when it happens and realize they were a long shot in hitting their set and got lucky? Or...make super huge preflop raises in early/mid position and make it a huge error for the lower PP to call?"

Yes. Your PF bet should make it wrong for them to call anyway. I generally raise around 100 preflop for levels 1-3. 65 is too small.

[AtticusFinch]

[ QUOTE ]

The people that call and try to flop a set are calling because of their implied odds. It doesn't matter if you bet 3xBB or 6xBB. If they think they can break you if they flop a set, they will call up to 10% of their stack to do it.

To counteract this, raise more than 10% of your stack. It doesn't matter what the blind is. In the low limit games, morons will call you anyway, and they will be incorrect to do so.

[/ QUOTE ]

Damn, this is a great idea. I've been nailed so many times after raising to 75 (5x bb at level 1) and getting 5 callers. I'm raising to at least 100 from now on. If everyone folds, so be it.

[willie24]

you've recieved quite a bit of poor advice in response to your question.

there have been a couple good points made. one is:

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree with this. Early levels are about conserving your chips so you can prepare to start attacking the blinds in levels 4 and 5.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is basic. tight is right early. someone else said he could sit out the first 3 levels without much of an impact on his ROI. he's absolutely right.

you could push AA or KK every single time preflop, and that would be fine. you can certainly make more playing it other ways, but probably not much more.

the person who said that it is right to limp AA because you may get 5-7 callers even if you raise 5xBB is very wrong. if you're getting that many callers, raise more. raise so much that you get 0.4 callers on average and i'd say that's pretty good.

maybe the most logical post on this thread (i think it was van sexton):

if you don't know what to do, raise at least 10% of your stack (or 10% of your opponents stacks if they are smaller), and push (or otherwise pot-commit yourself) every flop.

that's good advice.

[JoeTable]

[ QUOTE ]
bah, here we go. ok, if you get 5-7 people in there and no one raises, that is the risk you take. if you get heavy action on the flop, you simply fold and get away from it for 15 chips. if you cant do that you cant win sngs. period. if you make a decent raise, say 55 to go on 10-15 lvl, you have NO IDEA where you are at. none. you could very easily get 5-7 callers even up to the 55 lvl making that raise. that is why limp reraising is the best way to play the big pairs. make sense?

[/ QUOTE ]

Raptor, clearly you're nut understanding what people are saying here. They want to know the perfect way to play
AA every time without ever losing once.

[JoeTable]

"Can you reallly fold AA and KK post flop and turn that into a long term profitable play?"


Uh...yeah.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
the person who said that it is right to limp AA because you may get 5-7 callers even if you raise 5xBB is very wrong. if you're getting that many callers, raise more. raise so much that you get 0.4 callers on average and i'd say that's pretty good.


[/ QUOTE ]

ok, first off, i may be stubborn, but im NOT WRONG. why i decide to help you people when you berate me is beyond me, but alas, i shall try again. i didnt realize we were talking about 10 dollar sngs. by all means, if u get AA or KK, just push and you will get called by A9 and better. any level higher, im risking my 15 chips for a chance to double up on AA or KK against a dominated hand. if i limp in utg, get 7 callers, then i can fold on the flop. EASILY.

however, if i make it 75 to go, even though they are making a somewhat bad play, PEOPLE STILL CALL WITH 55. i havent played very many 10+1s, but from what i have seen of them, they are not exactly tight early.

ok, i will say this once more. if i sat out for the first 3 levels and joined the game in level 4 after being blinded out, i could still maintain AT LEAST a 12% roi in the 10+1s, simply because the early stages are not that important. that is why i stress not raising utg with AA or KK. they are great hands to double up on getting in a limp reraise. they are terrible hands to see beaten by 77 when you make it 100 to go and still get called. and another thing, why would you want to make it 150 to go and make everyone fold? foolish. if you cant learn to fold AA or KK after the flop when the limp reraise doesnt work, you have a long way to go to being a successful poker player.

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]

In the early levels, when the blinds are 10/15, 10/20, 15/30
you are dealth AA - JJ in early position or mid position.

[/ QUOTE ]

AA is not the same as JJ. They should not be grouped together.

[ QUOTE ]

Now, you want to raise enough to make the trash holdings fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually prefer when trash holdings call.

[ QUOTE ]
But also, you want to raise an amount that makes you some money with the hand. I raise about 4 - 6 times the BB, about 65 chips at 10/15, 80 - 120 chips at 10/20, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds good for Aces and Kings. Queens are different. Jacks are more different.

[ QUOTE ]

Now the problem...what I find happening alot is that lower pockets pairs (22 - 88 usually) call these raises in hopes of hitting a set.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sweet.

[ QUOTE ]

Very often, these inferior pocket pairs make their set postflop and I end up losing most or all of my chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have found that they flop their set 11.76% of the time. If you find that they make their sets more often against you, you may have to adjust your play accordingly.


Irieguy

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]

why i decide to help you people when you berate me is beyond me,

[/ QUOTE ]

Get used to it, raptor. The best part is when you spend 30 minutes composing what you think is a well thought-out opinion stemming from a decade of poker experience and explaining a concept that you weren't even sure you should be talking about... only to find some smartazz retort by the OP 5 seconds later who's pissed because you disagree with him.

[ QUOTE ]

ok, i will say this once more. if i sat out for the first 3 levels and joined the game in level 4 after being blinded out, i could still maintain AT LEAST a 12% roi in the 10+1s, simply because the early stages are not that important. that is why i stress not raising utg with AA or KK. they are great hands to double up on getting in a limp reraise. they are terrible hands to see beaten by 77 when you make it 100 to go and still get called. and another thing, why would you want to make it 150 to go and make everyone fold? foolish. if you cant learn to fold AA or KK after the flop when the limp reraise doesnt work, you have a long way to go to being a successful poker player.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you're wrong and you're a jerk.

Irieguy

[Phoenix1010]

In Sng's there is often an optimum way to play each hand, especially preflop, depending on the situation.

For aces (I put kings in a different category, and queens and jacks in a different world) in early position in the early rounds, what you want to do is get no more than two callers preflop, and get them to call for as many chips as they possibly can. I believe that if you are not playing your aces with that as a goal, you are certainly giving up chips, and you are probably giving up money.

If your opponents are implied odds conscious, you have to make sure that you raise enough of your stack that they are getting incorrect odds to call. If they are loose maniacs, you have to get the maximum value out of their calls, while limiting the field. If they will call you all-in, go all-in. If you think they will call 200 chips on the second hand, raise to 200.

Yes, you will sometimes get outflopped. Against one opponent, you are never less than a 6 to 1 favorite to have the best hand on the flop. Against two you have to be more careful, but you are still heavily favored. If you push or call all-in on the flop every time, you will sometimes lose your stack when they flop a set, but you will more often take their stack when they flop TPGK. The key is that it is a highly +CEV move. Your heavy losses are actually just negative results of a play that is very positive on average. You can sometimes get away from your aces on certain flops where you get a lot of action, like KK2 or TJQ, but if you're throwing away aces on a 972 flop, you're throwing away money at this level.

I disagree with the poster who advocates limp-reraising UTG with aces, although it's not terrible advice. The 11$ SnG's have a notorious "school mentality" whereby one limper usually encourages others to limp in as well, and seems to discourage raises. On average, more players will see the flop when you try to limp-reraise, increasing the chance that you will have to throw your aces away on the flop. This may not be a -EV play, but it is far from the most +EV play available to you.

You have to understand that there's some kind of reverse gap concept that goes on in their minds, where they will call with more hands than they will raise with. They just want to see a flop. If you're limp-reraising rather than open-raising, you are counting on the opposite effect of what actually goes on. Raising gets the most value, by far.

It is probably possible to maintain a 12% ROI without playing any hands in the first three levels. If you aim higher than that, try to play every situation optimally. This includes playing aces on level 1.

Regards,
Steve

[raptor517]

irie, you are one of the few people on here who can tell me i am wrong and i will listen, being stubborn as i am. however, i do think there is quite a bit of merit to what i claim. in the 55s, which i play, there is a raise preflop AT LEAST 50% of the time, often called in 2 to 3 places. by moving in at that point, you can get called by hands as weak as AJ and 99. this is not a guess, it is a fact. the play is quite poor. i understand raising enough to get called by 1-2 people, then taking it on the flop. maybe there could be more than one optimal way to play, who knows, not me i guess. im not sure how it can be said that there is only one optimal way. i guess optimal way means best, and best means 1, but the limp raise works incredibly well, so i use it, and i will continue to do so.

[willie24]

no one is going to argue that limp-reraising UTG in the early levels should never be done. it is a good play- when you are UTG, when the blinds are small, and when the table is aggressive.

i thought we were talking about AA/KK in any position. limping KK on the CO after 3 players have limped would be terrible.

the reason limping UTG is sometimes superior to open raising from the same position is this: you think a limp will get more money in the pot preflop on average.

if you are betting 5xBB and getting called in 6 spots- as per your example, you certainly shouldn't limp-reraise. you are getting great action and should raise even more than 5xBB. (in an SNG)

edit: after re-reading the original post- i noticed that the posters question referred to "early and middle positions". thus your limp-reraise strategy makes much more sense in many games. however, the logic you used to support your arguments (if you raise you will get called anyway etc.) does not make much sense and could be very misleading to a beginning player.

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]

I have found that they flop their set 11.76% of the time. If you find that they make their sets more often against you, you may have to adjust your play accordingly.


[/ QUOTE ]

R
O
T
F
L

[Irieguy]

Apparently, you didn't get my joke.

Irieguy

[zaphod]

[ QUOTE ]
Raptor, clearly you're nut understanding what people are saying here. They want to know the perfect way to play
AA every time without ever losing once.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats easy, just fold and wait for a better hand.

[microbet]

Seems to me there is just a lot of miscommunication in this thread.

Raptor, I think, wants to limp/reraise because he feels the COMBINATION of times he gets raised and then gets to raise back AND the times people limp and he still has the best hand AND the times it didn't work out and people limped along and then there was a lot of action postflop, makes it the best play.

Most of the critisicm and responses were just about the times everyone after him limped.

Now, maybe Raptor's main reason for doing this is just because he finds he usually gets raised, and thus ends up getting more money in the pot preflop and still limiting the opposition.

Perhaps it goes further than that and Raptor thinks the times something like an A, K or Q flops and he really gets paid off from AK or AQ or similar situations is worth risking someone hitting a better hand that might have otherwise folded.

Recognizing that this is not the only way the hand can play out, and thus it's difficulty doesn't imply that the limp/reraise is worse than any other line, Raptor, how do you play the flop from early position with a several limpers and it is all undercards? How if it is well coordinated undercards or not coordinated?

[bball904]

[ QUOTE ]
Apparently, you didn't get my joke.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think he was expecting a joke out of you on Shabbos.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Apparently, you didn't get my joke.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think he was expecting a joke out of you on Shabbos.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, are you even allowed to be online Irie??
/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Yugoslav

[raptor517]

lol, ok, now that i am rereading all this after getting home, it makes more sense. when i first read your post, you are correct, i didnt get the joke, so naturally i went on the defensive and again tried to justify my thought process. holla.

[raptor517]

thankyou microbet, for actually trying to understand and asking a good question. someone posted earlier about it not making sense why i would not want to raise and get 5 callers. the original question of this thread was how to prevent a heavy loss. raising and getting 5 callers does NOT prevent a loss, it creates one.

ok, when i make a limp raise, say the person directly to my left makes it 60 to go. 4 people call. often times i will push, because you can get hands as bad as AJ or 99 to call you because they think you are on a steal with a small pair. this works up to the 55 level, and occasionally in the 109 lvl. however, if its a tougher table, i will pop it to about 250 or so, and if i get a caller or 2, i will move in on almost any flop, since i would be the first to act. a hand that will call up to 250 would most likely be in the ranges of AQ, AK, JJ, QQ. maybe 1010. maybe. AA and KK would probably move in preflop. a lot of times those other hands will just push and you can get all their chips knowing you dominate them

the limp raise works very well because people cant get away from a GOOD hand. SOMETIMES they know they just ran into a monster, but they just cant believe it, so get in there anyway.

as for playing the flop when you dont get off the limp raise, and have 5-7 limpers and it is all undercards, it depends. go figure. sometimes ill come out firing, sometimes ill check raise, sometimes ill check fold. everything is situation dependent. im much more conservative with my stack early, so check folding often times seems a good strategy, especially when it is all low cards. on J, Q, K unconnected boards, you can get a lot of people trapped playing KQ, KJ, QJ, etc, and get a lot of chips out of them. happy hunting.

[d1sterbd]

You are absolutely wrong on this point if you are saying that you always limp from early position with premium pairs. It may be correct to limp in occasionaly in some games but this should not be the default play. I don't believe that anyone can be that good at getting away from AA or KK. If you are that good at getting away from it... it is probably because you are folding the best hand too much.

[raptor517]

i love it when people try to condescend my established, effective play. playing 8 tables, limping every time in ep and reraise with AA and KK will make you so much profit it is sick. because you dont understand the reason for this play, you are probably the person that pays me off when i do it.

the original post was about the safest way to play the premium pocket pairs, AA and KK. this is THE safest way to play those hands to prevent the heavy losses. the GOOD players fold the best hand too much. feel free to go all in on a 9 high flop with your AA and get beat by someone that limped in and flopped a set. by all means, donate.

[Drac]

Have you had issues with people catching on to this move? Not that folding around after you push is bad as you'll pick up a good % return for no risk but I see this move a lot (and make it myself) with AA/KK.

How about dealing with QQ? I've just moved up after 1,000 10+1's on Party to the 20+2's and am not doing well. It seems that people are betting 10 + times the BB in the early rounds with their QQ when they're first into the pot. At the 10's these overbets were almost always BS small PP's trying to take the pot down. Every time I've called one in the 22's it's been QQ (at least 5 times so far). I know it's not a huge sample size but I'd like to hear what people are doing with QQ. I was reamed up and down for making a 5x BB open raise from UTG+1 with QQ the other night. Clueless moron, dumbass, etc. were the terms used. Of course it was because the button called me with A4 and flopped trip 4's.
I definitely need some help here as I had a 25%+ ROI in the 10's but am struggling to adapt to the 20's. Play seems super tight until the blinds are 100/200, 6 players or more left and it becomes a total all in crap shoot in which I'm not doing well.

[raptor517]

well, first off, its not exactly an all in crap shoot, this is where a lot of better players get their edge, knowing when to go all in during the 'crap shoot' rounds. as for people catching on, its amazing how they dont. it seems to work entirely too often. its as if people know this move, and they know you know it, and they know you know they know it, so they think you are bluffing. ok, its probably not deep like that, but it still works quite a bit.

as for playing queens, i play them super passive. i dont like the hand early. ill probably get flamed for this but utg i like to limp call a decent raise with QQ. if you raise and get reraised, you are screwed, if you reraise and get pushed on, you are screwed, so i limp call. seems to work pretty decent for me.

[AtticusFinch]

[ QUOTE ]
ill probably get flamed for this but utg i like to limp call a decent raise with QQ. if you raise and get reraised, you are screwed, if you reraise and get pushed on, you are screwed, so i limp call. seems to work pretty decent for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Raptor. This is your flame. I won't bother writing it out because you already know its contents.

-AF

P.S. I think limp-reraising with AA-KK UTG is fine and do it often.

[raptor517]

thanks finch, you are a sweetie.

[AtticusFinch]

[ QUOTE ]
thanks finch, you are a sweetie.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothin' but love, bro' /images/graemlins/wink.gif