Two hands for comment

[Bigwig]

I'm going through my worst streak of out of the money finishes ever, and I'm freaking out. Two hands, both in PokerStars $30+3

1. 6 handed, 50/100

UTG folds
MP folds
Co folds
Button (t4000) calls 100
Hero SB (t1400) A /images/graemlins/club.gifK /images/graemlins/heart.gif raises to 400
SB (t1500) reraises to 1500 and is all-in
Button calls

Hero needs to call 1000 into a pot of 4200 (for him). Should he?

Results in white, if you care:
<font color="white">Hero called, SB had 55, Button KQ, Button spiked two Q's and I lost. It's not important, though. The decision is. </font>

2. First hand of tournament, so all stacks are even at 1500.

All fold to button who calls 20.
Hero, in SB has A /images/graemlins/heart.gifQ /images/graemlins/heart.gif and raises to 100
BB calls 80
Button calls 80

Flop: K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Hero bets 200
BB calls 200
Button folds

Turn: 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Hero?

Also, would a check raise on the flop been better?

[Bigwig]

Jesus H, just as I got done posting this, I busted out of a tournament on an allin with AA where pocket Q's AND pocket 9's both hit a set on the flop.

Unreal. I'm going f****** nuts here.

[Bigwig]

C'mon.

[Unarmed]

Hand 1 - Any time a limper cold calls a raise and an allin I'm running away from my AKo.

Hand 2 - I like your line. I hate raising AQ out of the blinds but you have only one limper so you have to take control. A C/R on the flop reeks of a flush draw b/c if you were on a made hand you'd want to protect your hand against two opponents. I check/fold the turn BTW.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 - Any time a limper cold calls a raise and an allin I'm running away from my AKo.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even with those odds? It's obvious I'm behind at least ONE of the opponents. But I'm pretty sure I have correct odds to call. The danger is, of course, that I go busto when I could fold and have 10BB vs. 5, possibly 4 other players.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2 - I like your line. I hate raising AQ out of the blinds but you have only one limper so you have to take control. A C/R on the flop reeks of a flush draw b/c if you were on a made hand you'd want to protect your hand against two opponents. I check/fold the turn BTW.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does it scream flush draw? Couldn't it be AK? Or trips?

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
The danger is, of course, that I go busto when I could fold and have 10BB vs. 5, possibly 4 other players.


[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly, don't discount the possibilty that button may have you completely smoked either.

[ QUOTE ]

Does it scream flush draw? Couldn't it be AK? Or trips?

[/ QUOTE ]

Could be, but you raised out of the SB PF, indicating a pretty big holding, and then you check a K high 2-flush flop into two opponents. I'd put you on a strangely played KK or AQ/QQ after the check. I guess you could get a free card if they're weak. However, if I'm holding a K and bet it, and you raise me, I'll put you in as KK is just a statistically unlikely holding.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
Could be, but you raised out of the SB PF, indicating a pretty big holding

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know about 'big.' After all, I raised after everyone but the button folded. And all he did was call.

[Unarmed]

Alright, give me the range of hands you will raise in that situation. It really doesn't matter anyway, my point was if you check on a two-flush flop into two opponents after having shown aggression PF you are illutrating quite plainly that you are not scared of a free card.

The only hand not scared of a free card here is the flush draw. Therefore if I am button holding any K I know I have you beat.

Anyway, I think just generally you're better off C/Ring into a PF raiser then C/Ring when you were the PF raiser.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
Alright, give me the range of hands you will raise in that situation. It really doesn't matter anyway, my point was if you check on a two-flush flop into two opponents after having shown aggression PF you are illutrating quite plainly that you are not scared of a free card.

The only hand not scared of a free card here is the flush draw. Therefore if I am button holding any K I know I have you beat.

Anyway, I think just generally you're better off C/Ring into a PF raiser then C/Ring when you were the PF raiser.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand what you're saying. But, that sort of deep thinking doesn't occur very often at the $30's. Not in my experience, at least. I seem to get the 'great call' comment too often when I've made an obvious one.

That early in the tourney, my range for raising there is pretty small. Probably 88-AA, AKs-ATs, AKo-AJo, KQs-KJs, KQo.

[raptor517]

duno if anyone else considered this, but out of position in the sb, ever consider limping with AKo? button limpers mean a lot of things, i dont know what level this is on, and even at the 109s people limp on the button with crap like A7 for some reason.. but i would consider completing the sb and seeing a flop.

[Irieguy]

There seems to be a recurring theme on this forum with AK and AQ. Here's the standard line:

1. Raise too much preflop, and hate it when somebody pushes.
2. Bet the flop no matter what comes, and hate it when somebody calls.
3. Either give up, or make a desperation call and post the hand.


A big ace is a good hand preflop, but it demands a little thought and skill to play for a profit. So, anytime you think that you will have to play some poker post flop, you want to give yourself plenty of room to maneuver. This means raising a small amount preflop. You have many more options if you do this. Also, if the preflop action gets heavy, you can make a more rational decision without clouding your mind with pot-odds nonsense. Understanding pot odds is important in ring game play, but in SNGs pot odds are like filters on cigarettes. They give addicts a way to rationalize behavior that they know is killing them.

Post flop, do not feel like your preflop raise is a contract obligating you to bet the flop 100% of the time. This is another way that a small preflop raise is helpful. Instead of autobetting, analyze the situation. What type of hand is your opponent likely to have? What is the texture of the flop? How would you act if you were really holding two pair or a set? Look at it from your opponents' points of view.

Pretend like you are a monkey and you have T-9, or J-9, or any of your other favorite middlish hands in the BB. Irieguy raises from LP to 2.5 BBs and you quickly call because you are getting great pot odds or something. The flop comes Q-9-2. You check, but if Irieguy bets you aren't going anywhere, that much is sure. He checks behind. The turn pairs the deuce and puts a second heart on the board. You decide to bet your pair of nines. Irieguy calls. The river brings the 8 of hearts. Wow, that board looks pretty bad for your pair of nines... flush out there, straight out there, pair on the board. You decide to bet the minimum to "find out where you are." Irieguy raises you 1/2 of your stack. Crap. You fold.

Irieguy wins pot with AcKs (doesn't show.)

Irieguy

[Bigwig]

Well, I often check AK &amp; AQ after a missed flop. Often. And much of it depends on the texture of the board. However, I didn't miss this flop. In fact, it's pretty good.

But that's a nice story.

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I often check AK &amp; AQ after a missed flop. Often. And much of it depends on the texture of the board. However, I didn't miss this flop. In fact, it's pretty good.

But that's a nice story.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I must have misread your original post. I thought you only flopped a flush draw with two players behind you. When the flop is pretty good I will usually bet for value.

Irieguy

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, I often check AK &amp; AQ after a missed flop. Often. And much of it depends on the texture of the board. However, I didn't miss this flop. In fact, it's pretty good.

But that's a nice story.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I must have misread your original post. I thought you only flopped a flush draw with two players behind you. When the flop is pretty good I will usually bet for value.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

So, you like the check raise move instead? Or check/folding? Or maybe we should just stop posting AQ hands that fit the mold too much?

In lieu of answering those questions, I'll accept another neat story about you bluffing some turd out of a pot.

[Unarmed]

Yikes...

Guy, read this over and figure it out for yourself:

[ QUOTE ]

What type of hand is your opponent likely to have? What is the texture of the flop? How would you act if you were really holding two pair or a set? Look at it from your opponents' points of view.


[/ QUOTE ]

He's trying to teach you to fish, so consider what reaction a C/R is going to provoke against whatever type of player you're up against based on their likely holdings. Post your thoughts and then maybe he'll tell you if they make sense or not.

That's a lot better than Irie posting, no C/R is bad. Next post please.

[SuitedSixes]

[ QUOTE ]
Understanding pot odds is important in ring game play, but in SNGs pot odds are like filters on cigarettes. They give addicts a way to rationalize behavior that they know is killing them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you employ a team of writers, or do you come up with these nuggets on your own?

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Understanding pot odds is important in ring game play, but in SNGs pot odds are like filters on cigarettes. They give addicts a way to rationalize behavior that they know is killing them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you employ a team of writers, or do you come up with these nuggets on your own?

[/ QUOTE ]

Bigwig's sharp wit inspires such repartee. He's my muse.

Irieguy

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm going through my worst streak of out of the money finishes ever, and I'm freaking out.


[/ QUOTE ]

That really sucks but freaking out won't help anything. Analyzing your play (such as you seem to be doing) or taking a break and analyzing your play are better options than freaking out.

[ QUOTE ]

Two hands, both in PokerStars $30+3


[/ QUOTE ]

I play PP, but I'm going to take a stab at looking at these hands.

[ QUOTE ]

1. 6 handed, 50/100


[/ QUOTE ]

Shorthanded, semi-significant blinds. Not a bad time to steal but also not a bad idea to play pretty tight.

[ QUOTE ]

UTG folds
MP folds
Co folds


[/ QUOTE ]

Sweet, from 6 handed to 3 handed just like that. Hope I'm dealt a good hand to play.

[ QUOTE ]

Button (t4000) calls 100


[/ QUOTE ]

Could have a wide range of hands. I have no read him so I'll say any/most suited connector (perhaps some one gaps), any pp, perhaps any 'decent looking' A or K. However, it's weird he's not raising. Hmmm, sure wish I had *some* sort of read on this huge stack deciding not to bully.

[ QUOTE ]

Hero SB (t1400) A /images/graemlins/club.gifK /images/graemlins/heart.gif raises to 400


[/ QUOTE ]

Oh snaps, I have a good hand. I'm covered by the button limper but really only 2 hands dominate me and there are many holdings button could have. Still, I wish I had a read or inkling of how the button has played. I guess I need to stop 16 tabling.

That being said I don't really want to push and get called by a pp. If he really is playing a wide range of aces and some other suited garbage then I've got some fold equity and/or added equity if called. You know, I'd feel a lot more comfortable playing this hand seeing a flop even out of position. I think I'd either smoothcall or raise to 250 here.

[ QUOTE ]

SB (t1500) reraises to 1500 and is all-in


[/ QUOTE ]

I thought *I* was in the SB? I guess this must be the BB. Hmmmm. He's showing strength and I have no read on him due to playing 16 tables at once. I've also bet more than 1/4 of my stack and might need to call this now, /images/graemlins/frown.gif. Well, let's see what the button guy does.

[ QUOTE ]

Button calls


[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm, Mr. big stack wants to take out the BB and serve up some $EV for me. One of these guys must have a pocket pair and the other one probably does as well or a Ax.

[ QUOTE ]

Hero needs to call 1000 into a pot of 4200 (for him). Should he?


[/ QUOTE ]

Man, this is not what I had in mind when looking down at my AK a moment ago. Calling must be +CEV but is it $EV? I really wish I had smooth called or raised smaller (since I'd have had a similar amt of FE). Well, my remaining stack is more than playable so I'll fold and find better edges.

[ QUOTE ]

Results in white, if you care:


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't, I folded, /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[ QUOTE ]

The decision is.


[/ QUOTE ]

Fold but call is probably fine too.

[ QUOTE ]

2. First hand of tournament, so all stacks are even at 1500.


[/ QUOTE ]

Sweet....

[ QUOTE ]

All fold to button who calls 20.


[/ QUOTE ]

Nice, 3-handed again!

[ QUOTE ]

Hero, in SB has A /images/graemlins/heart.gifQ /images/graemlins/heart.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

Meh, I guess a call could be in order here. But since I'm 16 tabling b/c I have no reads on anyone I'll fold.

[ QUOTE ]

and raises to 100


[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, oh, I accidentally mis-clicked and raised to 100. Well, that's not really all that bad b/c it's only 3-handed. I'm not sure why I'm risking so much on an ok hand out of position when all that is at stake are the tiny level 1 blinds.

[ QUOTE ]

BB calls 80


[/ QUOTE ]

Dammit. He probably has a pp, weaker A, some kinda K or any sort of suited concoction.

[ QUOTE ]

Button calls 80


[/ QUOTE ]

Double dammit. I sure hope an A shows up on the flop...otherwise this will be tricky to play.

[ QUOTE ]

Flop: K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm, well there is a K out so there is a good chance I'm behind vs. these chumps. I have a nut draw but my reverse implied odds are pretty bad considering I have to call two streets. Hmmm, the pot is significant. Perhaps I'll throw out a 1/3 pot bet of 100 here. Wait, this is the first hand. Meh, I'm going to find a better spot and just check and call smallish bets.

[ QUOTE ]

Hero bets 200


[/ QUOTE ]

Dammit, another misclick. Oh well, that should scare out any hands that didn't hit the flop I'm sure these chumps will let me have it right here.

[ QUOTE ]

BB calls 200


[/ QUOTE ]

Uh oh, I'm definitely behind in this hand. I really really really hope a heart or A comes.

[ QUOTE ]

Button folds


[/ QUOTE ]

*c'mon heart, daddy needs a heart or an A*

[ QUOTE ]

Turn: 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

Dammit, stupid fishes. Where's my heart??!??! I can't believe my good hand turned so sour this quickly. Oh well, I still have a playable stack even though I have to check/fold or call a meek bet here.

[ QUOTE ]

Hero?


[/ QUOTE ]

Decides to work harder on post flop play vs. fishes early in SNGs...and/or stop misclicking.

[ QUOTE ]

Also, would a check raise on the flop been better?

[/ QUOTE ]

Considering a bet on the flop would mean I'm probably behind on the flop -- I like a check/fold, /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

Yugoslav
(admittedly a post-flop fishy)

[Scuba Chuck]

Yugo, can you come and commentate my play? Live?

Analysis doesn't get much better than that does it? Maybe if he had the movie phone guy voice, but other than that...

[ReDeYES88]

Yugo,

Methinks you are nicely developing your own voice. I sense a bit of HOH with a sassy attitide, but I enjoy it nonetheless. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

More, please.

[The Yugoslavian]

LOL....a sassier version of Action Dan rockin' that pimped out hat? Hard billing to live up to I must confess, /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

Thanks for the positive feedback though, I appreciate it.

Yugoslav

[curtains]

Hand 1 is easy call, especially in a $30 sit and go, where idiots abound.

Hand 2 is a tough spot. I call preflop, because I don't want to play a big pot out of position with AQs here. It makes poker a lot easier, and I don't think it's so -EV to just call.

(Hard for me to justify it since I know that AQs is very likely to be the best hand, I just like to avoid the uncomfortable situations that occur when you raise out of the blinds in these spots.)

[Bigwig]

Would it be better if I begged the more accomplished players on the board for advice, rather than ask? I haven't been playing too long, and do pretty well. I can't wait for the day when I may be good enough to spend 20 minutes of time belittling those that are seeking to learn about their play. Really, it's an excellent use of time.

Thanks for those who are attempting to help.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
Would it be better if I begged the more accomplished players on the board for advice, rather than ask? I haven't been playing too long, and do pretty well. I can't wait for the day when I may be good enough to spend 20 minutes of time belittling those that are seeking to learn about their play. Really, it's an excellent use of time.

Thanks for those who are attempting to help.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ummm. A *very* accomplished poster has already weighed in with golden nuggets of insight.

If I am the one you took as belittling you, I apologize. I was merely trying to inject some humor into the way I'd play the hand.

I think there is *plenty* to learn in this thread already. I, for one, have learned at least a couple of things.

Yugoslav
P.S. I *was* attempting to help.