A serious (read: substantive) poll: please take it

[Greg J]

I am sure I am not alone in that I did not get all of the hand quizzes in the back of SSHE correct when I first took them. Now I get more than I did when I first read the book, but I will admit that I still have trouble with a few of the questions.

I would like to know which of the questions the guys on this forum have trouble with. This goes for you lurkers, regulars (btspider, droolie, olliejen, Shillx), new people, and even guys that occasionally drop in from the ivory tower (CDC, bison, sfer). In short, I would like it if everyone who visits this forum would take this poll.

This poll will cover pp 266-284 of SSHE, which covers flop play. I will admit I still have trouble with two of these examples (I will leave it to you to guess which two). There are twenty questions, so I guess I score an A- (90%).

Depending on the results of this poll I will create a thread discussing the type of situation you all have the most problem with. I will also request examples of hands you have played that illustrate these situations, and we can all have fun dissecting them.

Also, feel free to comment on this idea and discuss why you chose a particular example. This will keep a good lively discussion, and keep the post bumped. Most of us, I hope it would improve our games.

[reubenf]

I'll try to get to this tonight. The results should be interesting.

[tytygoodnuts]

Great idea. I checked quite a few hands that I am unsure about. They make sense when I read them, but in actual play I often find myself confused.

[shadow29]

I'm not a regular? Jackass! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I lent out my copy of SSHE, so I have nothing substantive to add to this thread.

So really, it's a glorified bump, with some indignation mixed in...

[Greg J]

My bad! You are totally a regular, as are zulu, davelin, milesdyson, mmbt0ne, toss, and a bunch of other guys I didn't mention. Please don't take offence. I really should not have mentioned any names sorry. Stepped in it just by doing that.

[shadow29]

lol, just jerking your chain /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[droolie]

I just went through them and got 14 wrong. I said raise. Doh! It's kind of sad that I got any wrong considering the fact that I practically have them memorized.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
My bad! You are totally a regular, as are zulu, davelin, milesdyson, mmbt0ne, toss, and a bunch of other guys I didn't mention. Please don't take offence. I really should not have mentioned any names sorry. Stepped in it just by doing that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yay, I'm a regular! Unfortunately I don't have my book in front of me. I have a question though, what if I understand the example, I just don't necessarily agree with it?

[Greg J]

[ QUOTE ]
I have a question though, what if I understand the example, I just don't necessarily agree with it?

[/ QUOTE ]

No arguements with Ed allowed. You drink the Kool Aid like a good little follower! And like it bitch!

[shadow29]

http://www.strangecult.com/pisser/koolaid/km_picture_new.jpg

[Catt]

I'll come back to this poll when I have SSHE available and can read the quizzes again. INteresting poll, though; I want to see the results.

[btspider]

13 i want to call and peel one off. i'm prepared to fold for 2 on the turn, but the flop seems early. if you nail the bottom end of your OESD, you have 2 streets to build a pot. if you hit the one creating a one card overstraight, meh, play poker. i can see the reasons for the fold tho.

16. the question is an easy call. the PF cap isn't something i've been doing and the flop bet seems useless to me.

[Greg J]

NOTE: I am not looking at what the text recommends as far as reasoning while making this post, so it could be totally off (or totally correct).

I had trouble with 13 too. I now see the advise is correct though. No way those J outs are clean -- i give this hand 6 outs, in which case you need about 7:1 to call. You are getting 9:2 (4.5:1), plus it could be reraised or even capped back to you. I don';t think you are getting the implied odds here to make this worth it.

[Brain]

Oh yeah!

[Brain]

I moved last weekend so I have to figure out which box my book is in first. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Catt]

I have trouble with 7 and with 18.

Question 7 I am inclined to call instead of reraise. I read Ed's explanation and I understand it, but I must not internalize it because unless I am literally reading the explanation I am not reraising this 4-handed pot.

Question 18 I fold about ~100% of the time. I see Ed's argument but I still don't adopt it and I fold this.

[Greg J]

Thanks to all who responded so far. Keep em coming. I will try to make a post about this Sunday I hope at the latest. Tomorrow I will be busy all day.

[VBM]

13 i call when i should fold
14 i raise when i should call.

...but, i'm more outspoken than good. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[bottomset]

gonna go retake it, the first time through those quizzes wasn't that pretty .. but subsequent times have been much better

[Dave G.]

Question 18: This is a clear fold for me. There's just too many ways this hand is beaten even if it does spike one of its outs. I'd never call this bet.

I can see his reasoning but still... I'm saving my money on this one.

[Huhmare]

[ QUOTE ]
Question 18: This is a clear fold for me. There's just too many ways this hand is beaten even if it does spike one of its outs. I'd never call this bet.

I can see his reasoning but still... I'm saving my money on this one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too.. there is no way I would call. For all I know I could be beaten already. Somebody might be drawing to flush. NEVER. Making the hand is unlikely and even then it might be the second best hand.

[adsman]

Question 7 I just call, raising just seems peaky for me and I seriously doubt you'll get a freecard. Question 18 is a clear fold, to me this is just throwing money after bad. And I have problems with his preflop call to the raise with 43 in the blind. (But its suited! /images/graemlins/grin.gif)

I didn't select question 16 but the preflop cap isn't something I'm comfortable with.

great idea by the way.

[Nick Royale]

It is about half a year since I read SSHE and did the quiz. Because of this poll I reread the quiz and got 17/20 answers correct (I had hoped for a better result, but they were trickier than I rembered so I'm quite pleased). Doing the poll I only checked the hands that I still after reading Millers thoughts had problem agreeing with (that was the thought, right?) The questions I failed was 4, 7 and 14:

Hand 4:
I was more afraid of having to pay 2 bets to see the turn than realizing the great possibilty of getting a free card. I still think you're behind often since these players are passive and won't bet TPNK or worse.

From Millers motivation: "Because you definately would have call this getting 8:1..." without any backdoors I don't see this as a clear call. But I would probably get better odds than 8:1 and in that case it's a clear call. I didn't check this hand when filling the poll since Miller convinced me I'll often succeed getting a free card and only rarely get check/raised by these passive opponents.

Hand 7:
It seem many having trouble realizing this is a raise. 3-betting this flop seem so wrong, but by reading the motivation I agree a raise would be good here.

I actually posted a hand a couple of months ago doing a comparision between this hand and a hand I played myself. Please take your time to give me your thoughts: Comparison with SSHE (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=micro&Number=1543788&f part=&PHPSESSID=)

Hand 14:
This is the only hand I still have trouble on agreeing with. A 3-bet on the turn will face 2 players 3 cold giving the first of them 8.7:1 on a call. By waiting to the turn the pot will be about 15BB. If the flop aggressor bet and you raise you will face the first caller with 9:1. It would be better to raise the flop IMO. (or at least equally good)

This is the only hand I checked I didn't grasp in the poll.

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 14: This is the only hand I still have trouble on agreeing with. A 3-bet on the turn will face 2 players 3 cold giving the first of them 8.7:1 on a call. By waiting to the turn the pot will be about 15BB. If the flop aggressor bet and you raise you will face the first caller with 9:1. It would be better to raise the flop IMO. (or at least equally good)

This is the only hand I checked I didn't grasp in the poll.

[/ QUOTE ]

its 29.5:3 (immediate) to the first limper if you 3-bet the flop. gutshots could call that.

when you raise the turn, they get slightly worse odds, have one less street to make up bets, are further away from that street's cap than they were on the flop. 2 BB's more is a large investment if you make an incorrect call.. 1 SB more is a minor error.. maybe neutral EV once all bets go in.

also, its a wait to push your equity since there is a flush draw out there.

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Question 18: This is a clear fold for me. There's just too many ways this hand is beaten even if it does spike one of its outs. I'd never call this bet.

I can see his reasoning but still... I'm saving my money on this one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too.. there is no way I would call. For all I know I could be beaten already. Somebody might be drawing to flush. NEVER. Making the hand is unlikely and even then it might be the second best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a call. you have a large overlay on your immediate odds to spike your dubious 5-outer. this also means that all future bets going in are pure overlay for the times you spike and still lose. you can call with a PP here (if you have the card of flushes). that's a 2-outer, so a dubious 5-outer can make this call unless there is a maniac left to act.

[mmbt0ne]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
My bad! You are totally a regular, as are zulu, davelin, milesdyson, mmbt0ne, toss, and a bunch of other guys I didn't mention.

[/ QUOTE ]

Awwww, I'm a regular. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I remember when I first took the quiz I got them all right. Actually, I always seem to get quizzes right, and then play the exact opposite. I'm gonna look over them again at lunch and see if I still know what I'm doing.

[mmbt0ne]

Well, I ended up missing 4, but I understand why the advice is different.

2 - I was just an idiot and didn't realize that there were coldcaller between your and the flop raiser. Obvious reraise.

4 - I don't like fighting over a 3.5BB bet with a pair of 4s and 6 opponents. Call me crazy.

7 - I said call. The free card play makes sense here, but I would have to be sure it would work in order for me to do it.

14 - I feel very strongly that this is a reraise. Assuming everyone calls, there are going to be 15.25BB in the pot on the turn. Let's assume BB checks, limper bets, and you raise, now the first caller behind you is getting 18.25:2 or a little better than 9:1 to call. Had you 3-bet on the flop, he would be getting 26.5:3, or a little worse than 9:1. I don't see where anyone with a hand will fold to a turn raise, yet won't fold to a flop 3-bet

17 - I got this question right according to your voodoo magic advice Ed Miller, but I think everyone knows that Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif5/images/graemlins/spade.gif is a raise preflop, and once you get the 5 on the flop, it is a certainty that you spike the Q for the win. And even if it is the Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, a 5 will fall on the river for the full house. This is a ram and jam hand all the way. Please take this into account for your next book.

[Eratosthenes]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 7:
It seem many having trouble realizing this is a raise. 3-betting this flop seem so wrong, but by reading the motivation I agree a raise would be good here.

[/ QUOTE ]

When I review the quizzes, my answer to 7 is always "yep, I can call that." I always give credit for about 1 Ace out and don't condsider that a raise will "clean up" those outs. So this is not a problem understanding the concepts, but a problem of remembering to apply the clean-up-outs concept.

In the linked example your overcard is a K instead of the ace in the SSH quiz. It is less important to try to clean up your K outs: 1) players in the micro, small-stakes universe are much more likely to play small aces than to play small kings and 2) you have a reasonably good kicker on your king already. To clean up your king outs you would have to get AK, KQ, and KJ to fold. KJ has a pair of Js and isn't folding. AK and AQ are likely holdings for the preflop raiser and have 2 overs and a gutshot + 2 overs respectively. So if reraising depends on cleaning up outs, then I think this is a call.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
its 29.5:3 (immediate) to the first limper if you 3-bet the flop. gutshots could call that.

[/ QUOTE ]
No, it's 26.5:3.

[ QUOTE ]
when you raise the turn, they get slightly worse odds

[/ QUOTE ]
Immediate, no. Implied, yes.

[ QUOTE ]
have one less street to make up bets, are further away from that street's cap than they were on the flop. 2 BB's more is a large investment if you make an incorrect call.. 1 SB more is a minor error..


[/ QUOTE ]
I like this argument.

[ QUOTE ]
also, its a wait to push your equity since there is a flush draw out there.

[/ QUOTE ]
If a flushcard hit on the turn and flop aggressor bets we will still have to raise so I don't think that's a reason for waiting.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
In the linked example your overcard is a K instead of the ace in the SSH quiz. It is less important to try to clean up your K outs: 1) players in the micro, small-stakes universe are much more likely to play small aces than to play small kings and 2) you have a reasonably good kicker on your king already. To clean up your king outs you would have to get AK, KQ, and KJ to fold. KJ has a pair of Js and isn't folding. AK and AQ are likely holdings for the preflop raiser and have 2 overs and a gutshot + 2 overs respectively. So if reraising depends on cleaning up outs, then I think this is a call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I read my post again and realized that that's a big differance.

[ QUOTE ]
So if reraising depends on cleaning up outs, then I think this is a call.

[/ QUOTE ]
It wasn't. I would actually never get any hand to fold this because all my opponents (except CO) will only have 1 more to call when it gets back to them.

My reason for raising in my hand would be better than in the hand in SSHE was that I would never fold anyone (good because I have equity) and I'm not nearly as likely to get 3-betted as Hero in SSHE #7 is getting capped (good since that way I'm likely to get a turn freecard).

[Greg J]

Looks like number 7 was the one we have the most issues with. I am going to make a post about this example and ask for people to submit hands that seem similar in nature so we can analyse them.

I would, however, like for people to keep taking this poll to see which example I will post about next. And if you have truble with Ex 7, please go ahead and mark it. I would like this poll to be reflective (that is accurate) of what we need to improve on.

Thanks again
Greg