A different way to play JJ

[SossMan]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP1 (t1355)
MP2 (t3370)
SossMan (t4135)
CO (t1280)
Button (t725)
SB (t1810)
BB (t1215)
UTG (t1990)
UTG+1 (t1750)

Preflop: SossMan is MP3 with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls t50, UTG+1 calls t50, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises to t150</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SossMan calls t150, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, UTG calls t100, UTG+1 calls t100.

Flop: (t675) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets t205</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SossMan raises to t550</font>, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: t1430

[schwza]

yep, that's different.

after villain makes it T150 over two T50 limpers, it looks a lot like a big ace or a big pair. what made you think he didn't have the goods? limping 44, 99, or A9s and then c/r'ing the PFR from utg/utg+1 also seems pretty reasonable. would be curious to hear your thoughts on this one.

[BlackAces]

I like it. Wimpy bets get punished. Great way to use a big stack.

[MLG]

ahhh the big stack. I like this play, actually I tend to do it too much, but in the right spots it works.

[nolanfan34]

I don't like it, unless there's a specific read that you have on the PF raiser that you're not telling us about. The inclusion of two more opponents to act is why I think this isn't a great play.

If either UTG or UTG+1 C/R all-in, you're pretty much dead most likely, unless it's specifically a heart draw on this flop. And I think often enough the PF raiser will have an Ace too.

It worked this time, but I have a hard time believing this is a long term profitable play.

Last thought, if the PF raiser calls your raise on the flop, I think it makes it tough to play on the turn. If he checks do you bet again?

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
ahhh the big stack. I like this play, actually I tend to do it too much, but in the right spots it works.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I'd like it better if the flop had a K and not an A. Don't you think you're going to pay off the short stack who re-raises all-in with an Ace too often here? I guess I'd like it a little more if my hand was slightly more live against an Ace.

[Che]

Did the fact that MP1's oddball flop bet left him with *exactly* 1000 chips affect your play at all?

Seriously, your flop raise is the perfect size for putting him to the test for his whole stack without actually risking going all-in (with him or one of the EP checkers if they are in the process of check-raising) and the risk/reward of a 550 bet into an 880 pot is definitely very attractive. Well done.

Later,
Che

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Did the fact that MP1's oddball flop bet left him with *exactly* 1000 chips affect your play at all?

[/ QUOTE ]

i was wondering if someone would catch that. It cerainly did.

Everyone is talking about the flop, but I think that preflop is interesting too.

[BlackAces]

I think the way it was played, as well as the size of Soss' stack, makes it very hard for either EP player to go all-in without a very strong ace, and one of those would have likely raised before the flop. He was the only one to cold call the entire 150 preflop, so it's not unreasonable to mark him with a big ace himself. A checkraise all-in should be pretty easy to get away from, I would think, and that shouldn't happen often enough to make a raise a bad play.

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
Did the fact that MP1's oddball flop bet left him with *exactly* 1000 chips affect your play at all?

Seriously, your flop raise is the perfect size for putting him to the test for his whole stack without actually risking going all-in (with him or one of the EP checkers if they are in the process of check-raising) and the risk/reward of a 550 bet into an 880 pot is definitely very attractive. Well done.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm, seeing it written up this way does make more sense to me. As you said, I guess the key is to be able to lay down your hand for sure if the PF raiser pushes. You'd get 2.4-1 at that point, but odds much worse than that on your hand being good, most likely.

[Che]

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone is talking about the flop, but I think that preflop is interesting too.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think preflop is extremely boring. I would have to think very hard to come up with a set of opponents that would make either folding or raising correct on these stacks. Calling is the only reasonable play IMHO.

What do you think is so interesting, Soss?

Later,
Che

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the way it was played, as well as the size of Soss' stack, makes it very hard for either EP player to go all-in without a very strong ace, and one of those would have likely raised before the flop. He was the only one to cold call the entire 150 preflop, so it's not unreasonable to mark him with a big ace himself. A checkraise all-in should be pretty easy to get away from, I would think, and that shouldn't happen often enough to make a raise a bad play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point, after doing the math I'm coming around on the play. This type of hand is a great example of just how ABC I usually play, because I probably wouldn't consider raising this flop.

[SossMan]

I thought raising would be the "standard" play.

[woodguy]

I don't mind the flat call. It would probably bring the limpers along to help with the implied odds on your set and more players in the pot helps slow down the PF raiser post-flop if the flop doesn't hit him.

Of course lets not rule out "out-playing" the PF raiser post flop /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

What was your motivation for calling?

Besides taking advantage of post flop newbian bets, it changes your dynamic to essentially playing for a set, no?

If the flop comes all undercards and the PF raiser makes a reasonable bet what's your line?

Regards,
Woodguy