A Diet For A New America

[theBruiser500]

A non fiction book about how animals that we eat are treated in factory farms, what health effects it has on people, how bad it is for the environment and how bad it is for the economy. A compelling read, 400 pages and I finished it in 2 days. I really like the way meat tastes so I don't know if I can become a vegeterian (which I thought was a laughable practice before readnig this book)but I am thinking about it now.

Here are some of the ideas in the book: meat eating is not natural for humans, our bodies are not designed for it. Vegetarians suffer from heart diseases, and cancer by orders of magnitude less than meat eaters.

Animals are locked into little cages for their entire (very shortened) miserable existence with concrete floors, no light and not enough room to move around in. Animals are treated much worse than this but I will let you read the book and find out how.

Chemicals, PBC, DDT all the other stuff (some of which was used in wars and designed to kill people) is now in everything, like every animal and person in the world has traces of these chemicals in them.

Factory farms are bad for the economy, here is an example. In the Northwest factor farms get subsidies for the water they have to use to operate. Because they use so much water the hydroelectric damns there don't produce enough energy so residents have payed $4000 so far for a nuclear plant an it is estimated they will pay another $3000 before it's done.

I've done a bad job restating some of the points in the book, but hopefully they will still get you interested enough to read it. I cannot recommend this book, A Diet For a New America highly enough.

[sfer]

I saw a bumper sticker that said, "If we were supposed to be vegetarians why do they call it meat?"

[AngryCola]

I've read this book.

Not bad.

[eric5148]

You can still eat meat. Go to an organic market, like Whole Foods, and buy organic "free range" meats. This means that the animals aren't locked up together, and they only eat organic feed.

[turnipmonster]

my favorite sticker is "if god didn't want us to eat animals, why are they made out of meat?"

fwiw I've been a vegetarian for a long time, and I've never missed eating meat or craved it. it's actually pretty unappetizing to me. it's definitely not for everyone, but it works great for me.

--turnipmonster

[jakethebake]

*shrug*

[Sponger15SB]

[ QUOTE ]
fwiw I've been a vegetarian for a long time, and I've never missed eating meat or craved it. it's actually pretty unappetizing to me. it's definitely not for everyone, but it works great for me.


[/ QUOTE ]

Are you going to force this upon your children though? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[meep_42]

There is nothing new under the sun. (http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/Literature/Sinclair/TheJungle/)

-d

[MelchyBeau]

I think vegetarians don't have as much of a problem with heart disease and cancer is due to how we prepare meat. FRY FRY FRY.

If I remember correctly, humans were originally scavengers.

If factory farms bother you alot. Look for 'free range' stuff. You could also hunt for your food as well. I like deer meat myself.

Melch

[turnipmonster]

absolutely not, my fiance eats meat. I think people should be able to eat whatever they want.

[theBruiser500]

MealchyBeau, could you eleaborate on your meat is unhealthy cause it's fried point please, I don't understand.

[scrub]

[ QUOTE ]
I think vegetarians don't have as much of a problem with heart disease and cancer is due to how we prepare meat. FRY FRY FRY.

If I remember correctly, humans were originally scavengers.

If factory farms bother you alot. Look for 'free range' stuff. You could also hunt for your food as well. I like deer meat myself.

Melch

[/ QUOTE ]

Mmmmmmmm.....fried meat......

scrub

[scrub]

FWIW, it's tough being a vegetarian. You have to pay a lot more attention to what you're eating to make sure you get enough protein, iron, etc. It's not impossible to get enough protein and stuff as a vegetarian, but a lot of people have trouble actually doing it.

scrub

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, it's tough being a vegetarian. You have to pay a lot more attention to what you're eating to make sure you get enough protein, iron, etc. It's not impossible to get enough protein and stuff as a vegetarian, but a lot of people have trouble actually doing it.

scrub

[/ QUOTE ]

It's even tougher to be a vegan. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[Benjamin]

[ QUOTE ]
Here are some of the ideas in the book: meat eating is not natural for humans, our bodies are not designed for it.

[/ QUOTE ]
False. We evolved as hunter/gatherers. Omnivores. Which included eating the meat we hunted. That's why we have these sharp teeth called canines, for the meat, along with the grinding teeth for the veggies.

[ QUOTE ]
Vegetarians suffer from heart diseases, and cancer by orders of magnitude less than meat eaters.

[/ QUOTE ]
True, but can be attributed to vegetarians eating, as a rule, a good healthy diet that includes lots of fresh veggies and fruits. Average diet is crap, not because of meat, but because it is loaded up with crap with no nutritional value. A diet that includes moderate amounts of meat and plenty of veggies and fruits, and doesn't include the gobs of sugar, refined flour, empty starches, etc ... found in an average diet, will leave you fit, trim and healthy.

B.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]

False. We evolved as hunter/gatherers. Omnivores. Which included eating the meat we hunted. That's why we have these sharp teeth called canines, for the meat, along with the grinding teeth for the veggies.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good argument, but how do you explain the makeup of our digestive system?

Just a curious question.

[turnipmonster]

people always tell me this, but it's not really all that hard. I eat a lot of beans and rice anyways, and lots of different sorts of vegetables. cottage cheese also has a lot of protein, as do eggs.

--turnipmonster

[peachy]

actually our bodies do need "meat", and if we do not consume it u must take in alot of substitutes. I dont like meat very much, but will eat it upon occasion b/c my body gets run down

and u cant give them credit for the heart disease, etc stuff for many things are contributed to the causes of such diseases, like heredity, exercise, etc etc. The assumtion could be made that the people who are vegitarian care "more" about thier bodies so they work out, take vitamins, etc more than others, therefore they have less heart problems, etc. I hate when its stated they have less health problems BECAUSE they do not eat meat.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

False. We evolved as hunter/gatherers. Omnivores. Which included eating the meat we hunted. That's why we have these sharp teeth called canines, for the meat, along with the grinding teeth for the veggies.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good argument, but how do you explain the makeup of our digestive system?

Just a curious question.

[/ QUOTE ]
You mean the same digestive system that has an incredibly hard time digesting roughage and nuts?

[bunky9590]

[ QUOTE ]
Mmmmmmmm.....fried meat......


[/ QUOTE ]

I'll never forget the first night we met and had dinner, Bunky had a salad, Scrub gets this monstrous cheeseburger at the metro. Proceeds to tear this thing up.

Funny thing is, scrub can't weigh more than 150 lbs. and Bunky is pushing 175. Got some metabolism there brah.

[scrub]

[ QUOTE ]
people always tell me this, but it's not really all that hard. I eat a lot of beans and rice anyways, and lots of different sorts of vegetables. cottage cheese also has a lot of protein, as do eggs.

--turnipmonster

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, people who like beans and rice or those heavy greens have a much easier time. Scrubette didn't like a lot of that stuff, so she had a very tough time with it.

scrub

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
You mean the same digestive system that has an incredibly hard time digesting roughage and nuts?

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

[scrub]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Mmmmmmmm.....fried meat......


[/ QUOTE ]

I'll never forget the first night we met and had dinner, Bunky had a salad, Scrub gets this monstrous cheeseburger at the metro. Proceeds to tear this thing up.

Funny thing is, scrub can't weigh more than 150 lbs. and Bunky is pushing 175. Got some metabolism there brah.

[/ QUOTE ]

The funny thing is that I weigh 200 lbs but look like I weigh a lot less. You should have seen me when I ran college XC--I weighed 60 lbs less than I do now and looked like one of those Sally Struthers commercials.

scrub

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]
actually our bodies do need "meat", and if we do not consume it u must take in alot of substitutes.

[/ QUOTE ]

this isn't really true. I pretty much eat normal stuff (rice, beans, veggies, pasta) and my body has worked fine for the past 11 years.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You mean the same digestive system that has an incredibly hard time digesting roughage and nuts?

[/ QUOTE ]
No.

[/ QUOTE ]
Then you need to do more research. Because the human body does have difficulty digesting those.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You mean the same digestive system that has an incredibly hard time digesting roughage and nuts?

[/ QUOTE ]
No.

[/ QUOTE ]
Then you need to do more research. Because the human body does have difficulty digesting those.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, but that wasn't MY point.
And it really doesn't conflict with my point either.

I only replied with the one word answer because I decided that I really didn't want to get into this debate. I've had it far too many times.

You can think that means I can't answer your statement if you like, but it's really just because I don't feel like getting into all of it.

[theBruiser500]

I don't even know what a vegeterians diet might look like. Yesterday I walked around a small town, a few restaurants and a small supermarket but couldn't find anything. I ended up eating an apple and a plum. Turnimponster, could you etll me some of the sample meals and snacks you eat?

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
True, but that wasn't MY point.
And it really doesn't conflict with my point either.

I only replied with the one word answer because I decided that I really didn't want to get into this debate. I've had it far too many times.

You can think that means I can't answer your statement if you like, but it's really just because I don't feel like getting into all of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understood your point. I was just pointing out that the fact that the digestive system isn't ideal for meat doesn't mean it is ideal for a vegetarian diet either so I don't think it's really a valid argument.

[theBruiser500]

Another aspect of this that annoys me is that these factory farms do everything they can to make money with absolutely no regard to their consumers health. They systematically lie about everything related to what they sell and do everything they can to rip people off, it really irks me to think that despite all this I buy their products anyway.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
I understood your point. I was just pointing out that the fact that the digestive system isn't ideal for meat doesn't mean it is ideal for a vegetarian diet either so I don't think it's really a valid argument.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Benjamin]

[ QUOTE ]
Good argument, but how do you explain the makeup of our digestive system?

Just a curious question.

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean the makeup that handles digesting meat just fine? /images/graemlins/grin.gif As I understand it our digestive tract is a middle of the road affair like our teeth ... it does a pretty good job of digesting vegetable matter, though nothing like the multiple stomaches of a cow, and it also efficiently digests meat, though with more baggage than needed by a pure carnivore.

B.

[eric5148]

If you're serious about not eating meat, you really need to do the cooking yourself. Check out these books (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/102-2906372-0392168)

[turnipmonster]

sure. I generally eat granola in the morning, lots of breakfast foods have no meat (pancakes, waffles, eggs, etc).


lunch: when I was in europe I got a baguette and had a fruit and cheese sandwich pretty much every day (pear + brie, etc). nowadays I eat soup for lunch, occasionally eggplant parms/pizza and things like that. also falafel. and egg+potato sandwiches.

dinner: In general I eat lots of mexican type food (beans and rice burritos), indian food which I generally cook myself, any kind of pasta (pierogies, m&c, lasagna). salad, soup, I dunno. baked potatoes with veggies also.

I will say this, I have never been to a restaurant where I couldn't get something to eat. if there's nothing on the menu (rare), I just ask the chef to make me something vegetarian. they always oblige, and two of the best meals I've ever had were at places that had no vegetarian entree.

just about the only thing I refuse to do is eat most fast food. I just stop at a grocery store and get some bread, veggies and cheese for a sandwich instead, maybe some cottage cheese or rice pudding for dessert. cheaper and healthier.

there is just tons of stuff to eat for any meal, somemtimes you just have to be a little creative about it. there are hundreds of different kinds of vegetables, and about 4 different kinds of meat. I don't feel like I'm missing anything /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

--turnipmonster

[emil3000]

Yeah, we don't really need meat per se. Meat is a nice way of getting everything we need though, since the things we need are about the same things that animals need. certain amino acids, and other things. One has to combine different vegetables to get everything necessary, but not too much of a hassle I expect.

Generally, the main problems with diets today are that they are too caloryrich. vegetables are nice cause they are pretty bulky, lots of fibers. But really, eating a correct amount does the trick for meat people as well. A low-fat diet is probably a good idea as well. The more fat (or rather LDL) in circulation, the more chance of getting atherosclerosis.

[theBruiser500]

This is his site btw, I haven't really looked at it yet but it looks good. www.foodrevolution.org (http://www.foodrevolution.org)

[Benjamin]

[ QUOTE ]
You can still eat meat. Go to an organic market, like Whole Foods, and buy organic "free range" meats. This means that the animals aren't locked up together, and they only eat organic feed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Factory farming of food animals is a really disgusting business, and my wife and I do buy pretty much only free range antibiotic-free meats. Aside from an animal cruelty perspective, the factory farming is a huge problem because they use massive amounts of antibiotics so that the animals stay 'healthy' while packed together like sardines. These are often the same antibiotics that us humans like to use. Problem is that bacteria evolve quickly, becoming antibiotic resistant, including evolving while in factory farms. Bacteria also like to swap bits of genetic code amongst each other for faster evolution, so antibiotic resistance spreads quickly.

End result: our cultural desire for cheap meat is contributing to a very serious health problem. My nephew almost lost an eye this year to a sinus infection that was antibiotic resistant.

B.

[bunky9590]

[ QUOTE ]
The funny thing is that I weigh 200 lbs but look like I weigh a lot less. You should have seen me when I ran college XC--I weighed 60 lbs less than I do now and looked like one of those Sally Struthers commercials.


[/ QUOTE ]

Nice. Could also be the fact that you are about 4-5" taller than me as well. I just hit 180 a week ago and have since went on a diet. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[MaxPower]

[ QUOTE ]
Another aspect of this that annoys me is that these factory farms do everything they can to make money with absolutely no regard to their consumers health. They systematically lie about everything related to what they sell and do everything they can to rip people off, it really irks me to think that despite all this I buy their products anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I agree than organic products are probably healthier, they are also more expensive to produce. Without the technology that these farms use there would probably be many more hungray people around the world. We do need to use technology in order to feed the ever growing population.

[coltrane]

Bruiser,

my reply is strictly from a health point of view, as opposed to economic.....I've done an extraordinary amount of research on diet (my mother is actually a dietician), as I myself am on a special crazy diet......

the answer doesn't lie in non-vegetarian vs. vegetarian, but cooked vs. raw....

if you know your history, you will find that fire was a VERY recent invention relative to the time we've been on this planet as humans....the way we eat in modern day is more different than anytime prior to this "era".....it is my belief (and the belief of many anthropologists, bio-chemists, etc.) that the human body was not intended to consume cooked food....I believe most of the health problems we have stem from this (diabetes, heart disease, etc.)....

the human body runs most effeciently on raw foods....now let me qualify a couple things....of course everyone will say "I've eaten cooked food my whole life and I am fine", that is all good and well but not the point....."fine" is a very relative thing.....would they be "more fine" on a raw-food diet?....absolutely....in terms of optimal brain functioning, disease-free health, longevity, etc. there is no comparison.....many scientists now believe that on a low-cal raw diet one should have no problem living disease AND senility-free until about 120 years of age.....

almost everything people eat today is useless to their bodies....empty calories which they eat too much of.....think about it, everytime your organs process food they are taxed....now imagine 2000 or whatever extra calories processed over 75 years.....it affects your lifespan.....

your body needs nutrients, sugar, fat, and little bit of protein (WAY WAY less than society will have you believe)...the purest forms of these (and the ones our bodies were designed for) are in fresh fruits, raw nuts, and raw animal products (sushi, egg yolks, etc.) and if you ate a diet consisting of just those things you would be 100% "optimal".....

even vegetables - which we've been told since children are so important - are not necessary and in fact can be not good for your body in many ways....(I am not including things like tomatoes, cucumbers, and avocados in that statement because they are actually fruits)......but things like spinach, lettuce, and other leafy greens are actually not that good for you....they were designed for species like cows that have seven stomachs and they are harsh on human digestive systems.....and any of the minerals, vitamins, etc. in them can ALL be found in a corresponding fruit.....

this is why it is true that vegetarians are absolutely not necessarily healthier than non-vegs.....things like cooked beans, wheat products (all carbs), dairy products (milk, cheese, cooked eggs, etc.) are not good for you.....whereas meat - if uncooked - has many things that are essential for your body (B12, natural cholesterol, etc.)....

so does this mean that one has to live a diet solely of fruits, raw nuts, and sushi?.....I sure as hell don't....it would be great if I could, but I have come to terms with the fact that I just can't......conditioning is a strong thing and I am addicted to the pleasurable taste of cooked food....so what I do is simply have a low-cal diet that MOSTLY consists of raw stuff and then I allow myself to cheat on whatever tastiest crap I want (I mean anything - bacon, ice cream, whatever).....I figure that 80% optimal to 20% crap (or whatever the ratio might be) is much better than 99% crap to 1% optimal......

anyway, if you're curious about more, PM me.....you can check out this website as well:

http://www.waisays.com/

[Phoenix1010]

Read Animal Liberation by Peter Singer if you're interested in this sort of thing.

I've been a vegetarian for 9 years and a vegan for 5 and I've never found it to be the least bit difficult. If you really believe it's the right thing to do, it's not really a burden.

I applaud you for taking the time to think about and study this issue.

Regards,
Steve

[Phoenix1010]

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, it's tough being a vegetarian. You have to pay a lot more attention to what you're eating to make sure you get enough protein, iron, etc. It's not impossible to get enough protein and stuff as a vegetarian, but a lot of people have trouble actually doing it.

scrub

[/ QUOTE ]

True. However, most people don't realize that a large percentage of Americans, Meat-eaters and vegetarians alike, are malnourished in some way. Basically, anyone who doesn't pay attention to what they're eating is likely to not be getting all of the nutrition that the body needs, so it's advisable for everyone to pay a little more attention. However, it is more important to actively pursue a complete diet as a vegetarian, and I think that required awareness is a big factor in why vegetarians are healthier on average than others.

Regards,
Steve

[Lawrence Ng]

I'd highly recommend it too. It's sickening to know people chow down on hydrogenated fats, preserved crap, and refined carbs not knowing what they put in their body.

The thing is, we humans can eat meat. We can be omnivorous/carnivores provided we are able to sustain a good amount of physical activity to follow with it.

The only problem most North Americans have is that they are too lazy to do any of it.

Lawrence

[theBruiser500]

From what I know, hydrogenated fat is the grossest thing ever. To save a little money the food people mess around with some part of the food so it stores better, bt the compromise is it's terrible for you. It's outlawed in Europe I'm pretty sure. Hydrogenated fat is in everything too.

[theBruiser500]

Hey coltrane thanks for the post. I think it makes a lot of sense that logic of looking for what humans were designed to live off of. You got any book suggetions? I'm a little unclear on what you can actually eat in your diet though. What are some of your sample meals? Also how could tomatoe be good for you but not lettuce? Tomatoe is just a fruit because we call it a fruit, and lettuce just a vegeable because that's what we called it. I'd imagine they were both equally accessible to humans.

[Alobar]

first off, we arent supposed to be vegitarians, nor or we supposed to be only eating meat. but whatever.

The same crap that is in our meat is also sprayed all over our fruits and vegitables. The only way to eat "healthy" is to buy everything organic (and you can get organic meat too). Just plan on spening an ass load of money tho cuz the stuff is expensive.

[fimbulwinter]

the idea that human beings are not made to eat flesh from either a design or evolutionary point of view is so patently ridiculous, wrong and downright moronic that it casts serious doubt on every other point such an author could make.

i just threw up in my biologically-educated mouth,

fim

[MarkL444]

[ QUOTE ]
I saw a bumper sticker that said, "If we were supposed to be vegetarians why do they call it meat?"

[/ QUOTE ]

omg this is gold.

i just ordered this book, thanks for the suggestion bruiser. im hoping that it has the same effect on me as it is on you.

[AncientPC]

You sure throw up a lot, are you sure you're not bulemic?

I can't ever imagine going vegitarian in America, there's such a small selection of vegetables when compared to other countries.

[fimbulwinter]

this question in and of itself is flawed. much like "how do researchers know the earth is flat?"

I'm guessing you've never taken anything like a comparative vert anatomy class? Where did you hear that the human digestive tract was not designed for meat? Moreover, did you source have a background in even the most basic principles of anatomy or biochemistry? Once you gain a certain amount of knowledge in either of those two fields, the above assumption is ridiculous.


fim

[Reef]

[ QUOTE ]
I think vegetarians don't have as much of a problem with heart disease and cancer is due to how we prepare meat. FRY FRY FRY.


[/ QUOTE ]

vegetarians get most of the fat in their diets from salad dressing

[fimbulwinter]

yet another reason such a viewpoint is completely indefensible, i guess.

to the OP: if you liked that pseudo-science drivel, you'll love the following:
guns germs and steel by diamond
dianetics by hubbard
etc.

I'm just angry because i spend too much time doing actual science,

fim

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
much like "how do researchers know the earth is flat?"

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, it's nothing like that.

But thanks for your concern over my educational background.

Btw, I did not say any of the things you just called me out for. YOU made the assumption that I thought the human digestive system isn't designed for meat.

That's not what I said.

Here is a copy of my post since you seem to have misinterpreted it so well.

[ QUOTE ]

Good argument, but how do you explain the makeup of our digestive system?

Just a curious question.

[/ QUOTE ]

Point out to me where I say the things you said I did.
Point out to me where I am making an assertion of ANY kind.

Thanks.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
yet another reason such a viewpoint is completely indefensible, i guess

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. It's really not a viewpoint which needs defending or attacking.
A science guy like yourself should see that.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm just angry because i spend too much time doing actual science

[/ QUOTE ]

I see.
Well thank you for saving us all from ourselves.


*NOTE*

Regardless of your take on the digestive system, this is a good book. It does detail how animals are mistreated and how factory farming is bad on many levels.

These two things are not even close to being "pseudo-science".

I wonder, have you even read the book?
If you are going to make critical statements like you have done, you should at least judge the whole book, not just what's been talked about in this thread.

Btw, Hubbard is an idiot and his work is without question "pseudo-science".
You'll get no argument from me about that one.

[fimbulwinter]

just to not be a diablo, here:

[ QUOTE ]
A non fiction book

[/ QUOTE ]
very, very wrong. takes things that have been proven incorrect and assumes them as fact, therefore fiction.
[ QUOTE ]
how bad it is for the environment

[/ QUOTE ]
very true, high-density feedlots are a large environmental problem, esp in modernized countries.
[ QUOTE ]
how bad it is for the economy

[/ QUOTE ]
false and moreover racist. producing by ecologically sound methods only results in massive worldwide famine, not for us in the first world mind you, but for all those 3rd world people that greepeace/calprig/etc. aren't concerned with. Some of the things these groups/people have done are downright horrific and monsterous. as a scientist, I view them as indefensible:
http://www.cgfi.org/materials/articles/2002/sep_26_02.htm
[ QUOTE ]
I really like the way meat tastes so I don't know if I can become a vegeterian (which I thought was a laughable practice before readnig this book)but I am thinking about it now.

[/ QUOTE ]
if you want to go vegitarian, feel free but be aware of the pros and cons of the decision.
[ QUOTE ]
meat eating is not natural for humans, our bodies are not designed for it

[/ QUOTE ]
see my other post. seriously though, screw this guy.
[ QUOTE ]
Vegetarians suffer from heart diseases, and cancer by orders of magnitude less than meat eaters.

[/ QUOTE ]
very true. vegitarians are also on the whole more health-consicous and financialy stable, which are major risk factors for the above.
[ QUOTE ]
Animals are locked into little cages for their entire (very shortened) miserable existence with concrete floors, no light and not enough room to move around in. Animals are treated much worse than this but I will let you read the book and find out how.

[/ QUOTE ]
completely and very true. consider me; in my lab i massacre BILLIONS of animals per day. where you choose to draw the line for feeling compassionate (flies? mammals?) for other species is very very arbitrary and varies hugely from person to person. personally, having been around suffering humans and animals subjected to what some would consider horrific research (which certainly draws the protestors) I can say this:
I would personally murder chimpanzees in the most brutal way possible with my bare hands if it meant extending the life of a human being for one year.
[ QUOTE ]

Chemicals, PBC, DDT all the other stuff (some of which was used in wars and designed to kill people) is now in everything, like every animal and person in the world has traces of these chemicals in them.

[/ QUOTE ]
chemical derivatives often come from wartime research. penicillin can be considered a wartime drug, should we ban that? Also, banning DDT in certian countries has caused thousands of unnecessary human deaths via malaria, are you comfortable with that? Chemicals are just like everything esle, they have pros and cons.
One last thing: you body right now has traces of atoms contained in the last breath of caesar. there are traces of platinum coating each and every one of the hairs on your head. unless you're given a titer and LD50, "traces" means damn near nothing.
[ QUOTE ]
Factory farms are bad for the economy, here is an example. In the Northwest factor farms get subsidies for the water they have to use to operate. Because they use so much water the hydroelectric damns there don't produce enough energy so residents have payed $4000 so far for a nuclear plant an it is estimated they will pay another $3000 before it's done.

[/ QUOTE ]
everything is bad for the economy when a free market economy is externally adjusted. in case study after case study, the best method to ensure economic productivity and environmental awareness is increased private ownership, something most envrionmental groups staunchy object to. The reasons for this senseless link are too many and too complex for this post.
[ QUOTE ]
I've done a bad job restating some of the points in the book, but hopefully they will still get you interested enough to read it. I cannot recommend this book, A Diet For a New America highly enough.

[/ QUOTE ]
read a biochem textbook, and econ textbook and a history textbook and you can form objective, intelligent opinions of your own rather than subjecting yourself to the quackery of a politically-motivated pseudo-scientist.

fim

[fimbulwinter]

read this:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1717593&page=0&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=14&vc=1
the guy couches political philosophy in pseudo-science and slippery logic. such people have been the sideshow of society for all of modern history, I'm doing what i can to keep them there.

Think honestly where you draw the line on suffering for species not your own. post it here.

fim

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
I would personally murder chimpanzees in the most brutal way possible with my bare hands if it meant extending the life of a human being for one year

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you want a medal for that?
I personally find it arrogant and sickening, and am amazed you have a brain capable of thinking it can judge the value of any life.
And that doesn't make me wrong.
Nor does it make you wrong.

That sort of decision is up to everyone to decide for themselves.

Also, just killing something is different than abuse and just plain inhumane treatment.

Your use of the word "racist" was also odd.

Does the fact that you are a scientist mean your statements are somehow gospel? I think not.

There are many scientists, and not all of them share your views.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
Think honestly where you draw the line on suffering for species not your own

[/ QUOTE ]

I have thought about it more than you would think.
I don't draw a line on suffering at all.

If I have to kill to defend myself or protect my territory, so be it. But the types of killing most humans take part in are not appealing to me.

And yes, TO ME, it makes a difference if they have eyes, legs, etc. But that doesn't mean the animal has to be cute. I just have to be able to see it.

I don't kill spiders unless they threaten (giggle) me.

Seriously.



Read this:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v247/razor27/InstantURLCode.jpg

[fimbulwinter]

you would not ask for an explanation if the point was not completely logical. like if i said "our brain is designed for thinking" and you said "good argument, then how can you explain the makeup of our brain/nervous system". in your question you imply that the design of the system does not directly imply its function, which in this case it patently does.

But that's silly nitpicking, the real meat is here:

if you take offense to my questioning your academic background, I'd encourage you to inform me of it. If you are indeed adequately qualified and accomplished to question a half century of biochemical research and thousands of years of anatomical observation, it would be an honor to hear your thoughts as such people are very few and very far between.

fim

[coltrane]

I agree with a lot of your implicitly libertarian viewpoints on economy and science, your points about "where do you draw the line on animal cruelty?", and the digestive system stuff (see my reply to Bruiser in this thread).....but "Guns, Germs, and Steel" by Jared Diamond may be the most important book I've ever read and your even mentioning it in the same sentence as L.Ron Hubbard is laughable......it begs the question: did you read it?.....

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
you would not ask for an explanation if the point was not completely logical.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not true.

I asked the question to see what a very informed person would tell me about the issue.

I gave no assertions. Yet you credited me with saying LOTS of things. I don't appreciate that. If you want to argue with me, at least do it for something I actually said.

[fimbulwinter]

[ QUOTE ]
There are many scientists, and not all of them share your views.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just like all scientists do not support evolution or the roundness of the earth. the vast majority do.

my use of racist is completely correct. re-read it if you need to.

my scientific background dos not make my views gospel, just much better informed as to the facts rather than the opinions surrouding all of these arguments. some people prefer to base beliefs on facts, some emotion and opinion, the choice is up to the individual.

Also, if you find my views offensive, post your own, I'd love to hear them. where do you draw the line for abuse of animals? how many people have you personally witnessed die? how many animals?

fim

[fimbulwinter]

I did, three times, and i can say this: it is the same thing in much better packaging.

This is not to say that I doubt the effect it had on you, just that i have read it and am posing informed opinions.

fim

Edit: one of the interesting things I should mention is this: I am a Christian and do not believe in really any of the factual accuracy of the Bible. Does this mean that book has no value to me?

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
Just like all scientists do not support evolution or the roundness of the earth.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an extreme way to try to make your point, but it's not working.

[ QUOTE ]

Also, if you find my views offensive, post your own, I'd love to hear them. where do you draw the line for abuse of animals?

[/ QUOTE ]

I already have. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

But I look forward to your posts informing me of what I should think.

[fimbulwinter]

oh come on, now your splitting hairs.

you would not take offense if i came up and asked you whether or not your mom liked how hard I plowed her last night?

same thing. if you'd like to argue facts or interpretations, fine, but semantics are worthless.

fim

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
if you'd like to argue facts or interpretations, fine, but semantics are worthless.

[/ QUOTE ]

As lots of people in OOT already know, I'm not a fan of such things.

[fimbulwinter]

this is such a nebulous viewpoint that it has no bearing on the real world. perhaps we should legislate "icky people go to jail" as well.

fim

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
this is such a nebulous viewpoint that it has no bearing on the real world. perhaps we should legislate "icky people go to jail" as well.

fim

[/ QUOTE ]

Who the hell is talking about legislation?

Only you.

How you got from me having a personal opinion to me saying it should somehow be a law is beyond me.
Again, you can argue what I say.
But let's stop making stuff up.

You can insult my viewpoint with silly comments like that if you like, but I've thought more about it than you think.

Believe it or not, there is a real person typing these words to you. Believe it or not, this person has done more thinking about life and death than you know.

I'm not talking about making anything law.
You asked for my opinions, and I gave them to you.
You really didn't respond very well.

You disagree.

Fine.

But you didn't give me any solid reasons to change my mind.
That's because you can't. Life is something individuals much judge for themselves. You can insult my views if you want to, but don't try to tell me that your views about living beings are right and mine are wrong.

That's just silly.

[fimbulwinter]

If i hit a nerve, I apologize, but everything I've said thus far has been factually correct.

fim

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
If i hit a nerve, I apologize, but everything I've said thus far has been factually correct.

fim

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree completely.
You just responded to a post where you basically accused me (again) of saying something I didn't even allude to.

If you can't even get these types of facts straight, why should one believe you can get anything else right?

And it's not about hitting a nerve, it's about you making assumptions about the value of life which cannot be proven to be correct or false.

That's fine, but don't expect me to go along with such assumptions.

[coltrane]

what exactly do you disagree with in the book and can you support those disagreements with any kind of research remotely comparable to his?......"Guns, Germs, and Steel" to me was very scientific, historical, grounded in logic and scientific method (as well as hands-on research) combined with non-derivitive thinking....first intelligent and non-racist view of evolution and history that I've read.....in fact, right in line with a lot of things you seem to be touting (you think Jared Diamond is a vegetarian? - the guy talks about the pleasure of eating lion burgers with Aborigines)......in fact, I often view the logic I use in my approach to raw foods diet, the logic I get from Diamond, the logic I use when I play poker, the logic I use to analyze baseball statistics sabermetrically (ever read Steven J. Gould?), etc. as all coming from the same place.....the idea of separating an event from its result and not making mis-attributions because of a certain result.....i.e. - the reason white people control most of the world's resources isn't that they're more genetically intelligent than say black people......the reason my aces lost to pocket 5's after getting all-in preflop isn't because 5's are a better hand......

[AngryCola]

Hey coltrane,

I meant to respond to your raw foods post earlier.

I'm a big believer of the health benefits of raw foods.

Good post!

[fimbulwinter]

i have actually personally met the author (via UCLA) and have discussed his views and conclusions with people much more versed in the fields in which he dabbles in his book (geographical human genetics, etc.). there are many, here especially, who think the book is great, and indeed it is a good hypothesis, but there are many glaring errors and uses of circular logic throughout the book.

read the first two reviews here:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0393317552/ref%3Dpd%5Fsl%5Faw%5Falx-jeb-6-1%5Fbook%5F2133061%5F1/002-4052421-5617612

Honestly, the truth is this:
that he came to a "one culture dominates others by happenstance" conclusion was no accident. diamond is not only versed in science, but also in the political opinions which permeate academia. I am not suggesting that any race is genetically better or that any culture is chosen by God to succeed over others, just that the real most probable answer is not nearly no simple, and most importantly, does not make nearly as good a book.

fim

[AngryCola]

Honestly, this is nothing personal.

Can you please take the time to clean up your links with the URL code?

If you don't, it stretches the whole thread out and is very annoying. Switch to flat mode to see what I'm talking about.
It's really easy too.

Link (http://www.google.com)

See?

Seriously.. not personal. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Thanks.

[AncientPC]

[ QUOTE ]
Honestly, this is nothing personal.

Can you please take the time to clean up your links with the URL code?

If you don't, it stretches the whole thread out and is very annoying. Switch to flat mode to see what I'm talking about.
It's really easy too.

Link (http://www.google.com)

See?

Seriously.. not personal. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fimbulwinter browses the forum in threaded mode, hence he doesn't really care much for tidy links.

However I'd second that notion, fimbul can you please use the instant UBB code for linking?

[fimbulwinter]

it looks just fine to me (my window more than fits the URL and then some).

if it'll really make you happy, I'll figure it out in future posts.

fim


EDIT: are you guys at 800x600 or something? it looks just fine to me in both threaded and flat mode...

fim

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
it looks just fine to me (my window more than fits the URL and then some).

if it'll really make you happy, I'll figure it out in future posts.

fim


EDIT: are you guys at 800x600 or something? it looks just fine to me in both threaded and flat mode...

fim

[/ QUOTE ]

Weird.

It causes most people problems

I browse at 1024 x 768 on a 21 inch monitor.
So that can't be it.

:shrug:

Anyway, it's easy to use the URL code.
The people who read in flat mode will appreciate your linking efforts. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]
completely and very true. consider me; in my lab i massacre BILLIONS of animals per day. where you choose to draw the line for feeling compassionate (flies? mammals?) for other species is very very arbitrary and varies hugely from person to person. personally, having been around suffering humans and animals subjected to what some would consider horrific research (which certainly draws the protestors) I can say this:
I would personally murder chimpanzees in the most brutal way possible with my bare hands if it meant extending the life of a human being for one year.


[/ QUOTE ]

Fine, but you wrote this in response to a paragraph about the "mistreatment" (which is obviously a very subjective and loaded term, but I don't really know what else to write) of animals in order to be eaten, not for medical experimentation. These are completely different issues.

I'm not a vegetarian btw, but I'm certainly considering it. I already won't eat in most fast food establishments if I know they mistreat animals and probably everywhere does, I just don't know about it. I don't really want to read about it though, I always read about stuff like that and then stop buying products or going places, I'm sick of it.

[elihu]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Mmmmmmmm.....fried meat......


[/ QUOTE ]

I'll never forget the first night we met and had dinner, Bunky had a salad, Scrub gets this monstrous cheeseburger at the metro. Proceeds to tear this thing up.

Funny thing is, scrub can't weigh more than 150 lbs. and Bunky is pushing 175. Got some metabolism there brah.

[/ QUOTE ]

The funny thing is that I weigh 200 lbs but look like I weigh a lot less. You should have seen me when I ran college XC--I weighed 60 lbs less than I do now and looked like one of those Sally Struthers commercials.

scrub

[/ QUOTE ]

Scrub, you didn't look 200 when you were back east. Much more than that and you could look like Sally herself. XC or hashing might be the answer if not out of keeping with the surroundings. Best, E.

[coltrane]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey coltrane thanks for the post. I think it makes a lot of sense that logic of looking for what humans were designed to live off of. You got any book suggetions? I'm a little unclear on what you can actually eat in your diet though. What are some of your sample meals? Also how could tomatoe be good for you but not lettuce? Tomatoe is just a fruit because we call it a fruit, and lettuce just a vegeable because that's what we called it. I'd imagine they were both equally accessible to humans.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bruiser,

dirt and tree bark are readily accessible, but they are not fruits (and it has nothing to do with the fact that we don't call them fruits)....I'm not talking about words here, tomatoes are fruits botanically - lettuce is not....

as for my particular diet, the only things that are technically part of the diet is fresh fruit, raw nuts (shelled by hand only), raw animal products (sushi, egg yolks, etc.).....so most of what I eat in a day is simply that....breakfast I might have a banana, apple, canteloupe, some fresh juice, and some brazil nuts (or hazelnuts or macadamias).....lunch I'll have a tomato-cucumber-avocado-pepper-raisin salad.....dinner I might have some sushi....in between I'll be munching on fruits and nuts and juices....but then, like I said, I'll allow myself to cheat a little bit on whatever I want - carbs, cooked meat, etc.....now the extent of which to cheat and the hierarchy of bad to worst in cheat-foods is too much to explain here....the idea is a balancing of sugar to fat ratio and a minimizing of intake of "dirty" proteins.....

everything is explained in this (http://www.freeacnebook.com/contents.htm) book.....check it out.....

in general though, I basically just try to eat as much raw stuff as possible and then just cheat on cooked stuff when I feel like it.....it's not like I work a construction job or something so I don't really need to intake a whole lot of calories....it hasn't been difficult at all - I love the taste of ripe fruits and it's easy (no cooking) and I feel freakin' great.....

[Paluka]

I've been a vegetarian for about 10 years, I think my wife has been vegetarian about he same period of time(I've only known her for 9 years or so). We plan on raising our kids as vegetarians. We have many vegetarian and vegan friends. Being vegetarian is really easy if you cook for yourself, and it is really easy in a most big cities even if you don't want to cook.

[theBruiser500]

hey fbilmwater, why do you say the human body wasn't designed for meat eating? could you give specifics or recommend me some reading that eleaborates on this, or any of the other points you raised. thanks

another question for all. what exactly does "organic" mean? is it the sort of thing that anyone can say about their food just to sell it? does it mean it wasn't genetically enginnered, that cows lived on farms not factories, that they were given certain feed? etc

[theBruiser500]

coltrane that sort of diet doesn't seem very filling. i liek to eat a lot of food, probably more than i should probably just because i'm used to it but i don't see how i could eat just fruit and stuff and satiate my hunger. you say you "feel great", i've read that about vegeterians that they "feel great." curious, do you think this is a self fullfilling prophecy (you just think being a vegeteratian or in your case fresh food dude will make you feel good, so it does make you feel good), any thoughts on that?

[Matty]

[ QUOTE ]
my favorite sticker is "if god didn't want us to eat animals, why are they made out of meat?"

fwiw I've been a vegetarian for a long time, and I've never missed eating meat or craved it. it's actually pretty unappetizing to me. it's definitely not for everyone, but it works great for me.

--turnipmonster

[/ QUOTE ]I tried it for 2 1/2 years, but a McDonald's cheeseburger is just too damn good.

[coltrane]

Bruiser,

obviously the phrase "I feel great" is very subjective and is based in opinion as opposed to fact.....my advice is to ignore all opinion (including mine) and look at science....but I can give you one piece of fact: my mother had a heart attack a year ago, found out she had diabetes, had a blocked artery, had the blockage surgically removed and a stent put in, and was prescribed a bunch of drugs and a special diet....her health didn't improve very much and then after doing a lot of research, she quit all the drugs and their diet and went on a purely raw foods diet.....in the past 9 months her cholesterol went down 60 points, her insulin/blood sugar is in normal range for the first time in years, and she lost almost twenty pounds.....

your "hunger" is not hunger, but cravings for things in cooked foods that are addictive....if I say to you that it's scientifically proven that everything your body truly NEEDS is in raw foods, and that you can eat as much of it as you want to......and then you eat as much raw food as you possibly can until you can't eat anymore, but then tell me you're still hungry, what does that tell you?.....

[turnipmonster]

you probably have been, but just in case candle 79 is a really excellent vegan restaurant. my gf and I tried it for the first time last weekend after seeing the gates, really good.

[coltrane]

ever eat at Quintessence?....I highly recommend it.....

[turnipmonster]

no, but I'll check it out. candle 79 has raw food as well I noticed, an uncooked lasagna. I almost ordered it.

[Wayfare]

http://maddox.xmission.com/bigpot6.jpg