Big stack play

[rachelwxm]

Here is a situation happens to me a lot lately and I don’t know if I play it well.

It’s level 4 with blinds 50/100, you are fortunate enough to double up and sitting at ~1600 chips while the rest of the table has 8-10bb. There is 5-7 people left. Is it +EV to loose up and bully small stack like throw a raise from time to time?

I have seen this happens a lot by other big stacks and wonder if this is good strategy. On the bubble it's criminal not to do so, but what if there are 7 people left?

Any thoughts?

[Scuba Chuck]

You're gonna love my answer.

It depends. Your answer to this question is part of the study of folding equity.

[rachelwxm]

[ QUOTE ]
You're gonna love my answer.

It depends. Your answer to this question is part of the study of folding equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, I guess my questions is do you go beyond regular play?

Example:

sb and bb has 8bb each, do you play any differently if you have 8bb or 16bb?

[ColdestCall]

Giga said something a while back that has stuck with me...To paraphrase, it was something along the lines of "I MAKE AN EFFORT on EVERY decision I have to make"

So Rachel, I would agree with Scuba that the answer here has to be "it depends." Every time you make (or dont make) a bet, a risk/reward analysis is necessary. You have to ask yourself, What am I hoping to achieve here? What I am risking to achieve this goal? Is the weighted value of the times I succeed (taking ALL factors into consideration) greater than the weighted value of the times I fail?

Once you ask, and have good answers to, these questions b4 you make your play, you will make a lot of good plays, and won't mind so much when they dont work out.

[rachelwxm]

Here is one example:

you are on button

sb and bb has 8bb each, do you play any differently if you have 10bb or 16bb?

My usual play is since I have more chips than my opponents, it does not matter. Do I miss something here?

[Phil Van Sexton]

When you get down to 4 people at 10/1-30/3, the average stack is 2000. 1600 doesn't look so impressive anymore.

If I get to 1600 early, I went to get 2400. At 2400, I want 3200.....

You have a huge advantage at this point. You can bet 250-300 when in position and they need a big hand to play back at you. Usually, they won't because it will cost them their whole stack to do so.

Here, the worst that could happen is that I end up back at 800 like everyone else. Oh well.

[Scuba Chuck]

ColdCall, well said.

Rachel, what does "LOL, I guess my questions is do you go beyond regular play?" mean?

Your sample scenario still disregards some other important factors, including position, remaining players, and remaining players chipstacks. Also important to know, what have you been doing prior to this hand? What have the others been doing?

I remember once that Eastbay could not answer a request to write down a checklist of things to consider because there are just too many. At the time, I thought that he was just being tight lipped. I now agree with his sentiment.

Experience is the answer. Oh, and ongoing thirst for learning is pretty good too.

Is Irieguy accepting applications for new students BTW? It seems that his recent post is sort of a graduation to his current students, who have subsequently thanked him for his help.

[rachelwxm]

[ QUOTE ]
When you get down to 4 people at 10/1-30/3, the average stack is 2000. 1600 doesn't look so impressive anymore.

If I get to 1600 early, I went to get 2400. At 2400, I want 3200.....

You have a huge advantage at this point. You can bet 250-300 when in position and they need a big hand to play back at you. Usually, they won't because it will cost them their whole stack to do so.

Here, the worst that could happen is that I end up back at 800 like everyone else. Oh well.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the answer I like to hear, but how?

The problem for me is usually I keep folding and eventually we are 4 handed and I still have 1600 chips. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
sb and bb has 8bb each, do you play any differently if you have 10bb or 16bb?

My usual play is since I have more chips than my opponents, it does not matter. Do I miss something here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope. But the amount of the blinds matter. If they're 150/300, it's different than 50/100.

[rachelwxm]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
sb and bb has 8bb each, do you play any differently if you have 10bb or 16bb?

My usual play is since I have more chips than my opponents, it does not matter. Do I miss something here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope. But the amount of the blinds matter. If they're 150/300, it's different than 50/100.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's say 50/100 blinds, of course 150/300 blinds the total chips is less than 30bb for $30 buyin. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Sorry if my question if very vague. This post makes me think.
web page (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1708976&page=0&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=3#Post1713085)

[rachelwxm]

[ QUOTE ]
Giga said something a while back that has stuck with me...To paraphrase, it was something along the lines of "I MAKE AN EFFORT on EVERY decision I have to make"


[/ QUOTE ]

Something I am trying to improve and do it myself.

[ QUOTE ]

So Rachel, I would agree with Scuba that the answer here has to be "it depends." Every time you make (or dont make) a bet, a risk/reward analysis is necessary. You have to ask yourself, What am I hoping to achieve here? What I am risking to achieve this goal? Is the weighted value of the times I succeed (taking ALL factors into consideration) greater than the weighted value of the times I fail?

Once you ask, and have good answers to, these questions b4 you make your play, you will make a lot of good plays, and won't mind so much when they dont work out.

[/ QUOTE ]

For example if I have 800 chips at level 4, I never bluff raise, I like push or fold with good hands. Should I try min raise with 1600 chip stack with marginal hands like KTs UTG 6 handed?

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
For example if I have 800 chips at level 4, I never bluff raise, I like push or fold with good hands. Should I try min raise with 1600 chip stack with marginal hands like KTs UTG 6 handed?

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay Rachel, let's get you thinking a little more than usual.

Blinds (50/100)
Hero: 1600 (button)
SB: 1600
BB: 1600
UTG: 400
UTG+1: 400
MP: 2000
CO: 400

It's folded you, and you push. When is it appropriate for the SB or BB to call?

[Phil Van Sexton]

At levels 2 and 3, you have more room to maneuver. You can raise with a lot of hands from late position, even after a limper or 2. KJ, A9, JT, it depends. If the flop hits you or you sense weakness, you can fire out a 3/4 pot sized bet. At this point, your opponents need to decide if they want to play for their whole stack. You have position and there are 2 more betting round to go, so they are risking their whole stack by calling you.

On the other hand, you are not pot committed, so you can make plays whether the flop hits you or not. If they come back over the top, you can look them up if you have something or fold if you don't. If the stacks were even, you couldn't afford to throw chips around like this, and you often wouldn't call an allin with only top pair. Now you can.

At level 4 (50/100), it is trickier. If you raise to 300 and someone with 7-800 moves allin, you basically have to call. Therefore, you are better off just pushing in the first place. Feel free to do this a lot.

At a passive table, you'll see cheap flops from the blinds, or maybe you will limp in with a couple hands. Some players will call a lot pre-flop, then fold on the flop, so stay aggressive post flop. If nobody is betting, go ahead and try to take a stab at the pot. If you flop a draw, don't hesitate to push. Even if called by a better hand, you still have a shot to suck out. This is no time to check/call hoping to hit your draw. Their stacks aren't deep enough to pay you off.

[rachelwxm]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For example if I have 800 chips at level 4, I never bluff raise, I like push or fold with good hands. Should I try min raise with 1600 chip stack with marginal hands like KTs UTG 6 handed?

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay Rachel, let's get you thinking a little more than usual.

Blinds (50/100)
Hero: 1600 (button)
SB: 1600
BB: 1600
UTG: 400
UTG+1: 400
MP: 2000
CO: 400

It's folded you, and you push. When is it appropriate for the SB or BB to call?

[/ QUOTE ]

In your example sb and bb both have 16bb, I imagine they need top 5-10% to call. I don't generally push from button with 16bb unless both blinds are shortstacked.

[ColdestCall]

[quoteFor example if I have 800 chips at level 4, I never bluff raise, I like push or fold with good hands. Should I try min raise with 1600 chip stack with marginal hands like KTs UTG 6 handed?

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
In your example sb and bb both have 16bb, I imagine they need top 5-10% to call. I don't generally push from button with 16bb unless both blinds are shortstacked.


[/ QUOTE ]

Get out of your box Rachel, spend some more time here. Give me the exact hands you think they should call a push here with? Furthermore, I gave a lot of detail. What else do you think is important?

[rachelwxm]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In your example sb and bb both have 16bb, I imagine they need top 5-10% to call. I don't generally push from button with 16bb unless both blinds are shortstacked.


[/ QUOTE ]

Get out of your box Rachel, spend some more time here. Give me the exact hands you think they should call a push here with? Furthermore, I gave a lot of detail. What else do you think is important?

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, I am not usually pushing 16bb from button, but I would push with top 10% if my option is push or fold. That includes 66+ KQ+ AT+.

Against that range, I believe calling with 99+ and AQ+ is the way to go.

This is very hypothetical situation though.

[Scuba Chuck]

You are a classic. I'm not sure if you answered the question.

Rachel, if you are the BB, you have no idea what any pusher has. Don't think about what you would push with first.

Only think about what hands do you need to have knowing that you have 1600 chips, in this blind scenario, and the rest of the info. What exactly are the hands that you would call with?

[Mr_J]

"On the bubble it's criminal not to do so"

I think it's criminal not to do it here as well. You have a great advantage, so you should make the most of it.

[rachelwxm]

[ QUOTE ]
You are a classic. I'm not sure if you answered the question.

Rachel, if you are the BB, you have no idea what any pusher has. Don't think about what you would push with first.

Only think about what hands do you need to have knowing that you have 1600 chips, in this blind scenario, and the rest of the info. What exactly are the hands that you would call with?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I answer the question. First off, we assume every player is good, bb knows button is reasonable, therefore he get the range of hands that he would push and adjust accordingly.

It's like solving a logic puzzle to outguess what your opponent think about you. Of course if bb think button is maniac who would push any two, he just need to call better than average hands. So as you said, it depends.

[rachelwxm]

[ QUOTE ]
"On the bubble it's criminal not to do so"

I think it's criminal not to do it here as well. You have a great advantage, so you should make the most of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

So how do you generally play as big stack 7 handed?

[rachelwxm]

Thanks for the interesting response. Your post always contains some great NL advice.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
It's like solving a logic puzzle to outguess what your opponent think about you. Of course if bb think button is maniac who would push any two, he just need to call better than average hands. So as you said, it depends.


[/ QUOTE ]

C'est La vie. This wasn't meant to be a trick question. I think there is a very simple and logical answer. I also think that it is easy to define. For example, I would call with AA. What other hands?

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
When you get down to 4 people at 10/1-30/3, the average stack is 2000. 1600 doesn't look so impressive anymore.

If I get to 1600 early, I went to get 2400. At 2400, I want 3200.....

You have a huge advantage at this point. You can bet 250-300 when in position and they need a big hand to play back at you. Usually, they won't because it will cost them their whole stack to do so.

Here, the worst that could happen is that I end up back at 800 like everyone else. Oh well.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



That's the answer I like to hear, but how?

The problem for me is usually I keep folding and eventually we are 4 handed and I still have 1600 chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this line of thinking. I will often reraise allin, putting the pressure, and decision back on the big stack (as long as I am giving him significantly less then 2:1 pot odds to call). This is a very effective move. It's also the best way to accumulate a large amount of chips with just one hand. It generally compares to 3 blind steals.

[microbet]

Not that this is the answer, but ...

If player A goes all-in from SB and BB has 800 chips, BB doesn't really care if player A has 2000 chips or 800 chips. So, you certainly don't have more FE. You might have a little less FE because BB will more likely think you have a worse hand. Also, the 10BB 'rule' goes for your opponant as well as for you (raise them allin if they are under 10BB).

So, in general, I don't think you having a bigger stack should make you loosen up at this point.

I went through a phase where I was losing too many chips in situations like this where I thought I could afford it.

That said, I completely agree with the 'it depends' comments and have stated before that I think Gigabet's advice about thinking carefully about each hand was the most valuable piece of advice I had read. I wouldn't have needed that advice when I was playing off-line, but on-line I am a lot more prone to play without thinking.

Not that a game proves anything, but the last SNG I played in there was a huge stack who got that way being successfully aggressive early (not that I advocate it, but he was pushing most of the table around) just pissed away his chips as he kept being super-aggressive out of position with weak/marginal hands against an increasingly desperate field. Pretty much everyone doubled up off him and he was OOTM.

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree with this line of thinking.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I'm not sure what the hell I was talking about. That sentence wasnt what I meant. Very sleepy today. I posted a reply (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1713461&page=&view=&s b=5&o=&vc=1) later that made more sense (hopefully).

[Mr_J]

"So how do you generally play as big stack 7 handed?"

At 50/100 or higher? Generally the same way I'd play a normal stack. Constant raising in position. The big difference to me is that with a bigstack, I'm more willing to push into situations where there's a good chance I'll be called (maniac, shortstack). Ie as a normal stack, you don't wanna take a coinflip for your tournie life, but as a big stack you can afford to take these risks. My range of hands pushing vs a shortstack or maniac will be looser when I have a big stack.

It's 9:07am here (haven't been to sleep) and my mind isn't really working write now.

[sofere]

I'll take a crack at this.

First off when deciding to push, the consideration should not be what SB and BB should its far more important to decide based on what they would call with. I believe this was discussed in an earlier thread.

Regardless, I will try to answer this as what would I call with in the BB. I think my range is AA-QQ, If Button was doing this very frequently I may add JJ. I would probably fold AK. 7-handed with a push from the button, you're probably looking at mid pockets, and I don't want to get involved in calling a coinflip here.

My reasoning is that the next two stacks to my left are small and could be stolen from without much risk (although if the small stacks were any smaller their calling standards would be much lower and thus it would be more difficult to steal)

[GauchoFish]

all in every other hand if they are playing too tight, sit and wait if they play too loose

[eagle]

I agree with your calling hands.

Now, if instead of pushing she raises 500. Your getting
650 to 400 to call.

How does this effect your calling hands or is it push/fold?

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
So how do you generally play as big stack 7 handed?

[/ QUOTE ]

It depends. It depends on your position relative to the small stacks and the bigger stacks, it depends on...

Oh, I've alredy said this. You still haven't answered my question. I promise you'll be interested in the final answer.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]

Regardless, I will try to answer this as what would I call with in the BB. I think my range is AA-QQ, If Button was doing this very frequently I may add JJ. I would probably fold AK. 7-handed with a push from the button, you're probably looking at mid pockets, and I don't want to get involved in calling a coinflip here.


[/ QUOTE ]

Sofere, I am pleased someone had the balls to finally answer. The great part of your response is that your calling standards are very correct. Perhaps a little too tight. As I've said before, IMO, JJ+, and AK, that's just 5 hands that I'd be willing to call with.

But this scenario I created has a lot more psychological effects, which you've missed the boat completely on. (Learning point)

Below are the facts again.

[ QUOTE ]
Blinds (50/100)
Hero: 1600 (button)
SB: 1600
BB: 1600
UTG: 400
UTG+1: 400
MP: 2000
CO: 400

[/ QUOTE ]

What is the BB thinking, if SB pushes? Let's say BB looks at his hand and he's holding QJs. (hint: consequences of calling, odds, the next 7 hands, more)

Next question. What is UTG, and UTG+1 thinking about?