Limp reraising QTs from the button.

[jacki]

This table was full of fvcktards.
Should I raise this preflop the first time it gets to me?

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (19 SB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 folds.

Turn: (11.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

Any comments to this point?

[wrto4556]

Pre-flop is a mess IMO. I raise, not limp.

But since you limped, I don't 3 bet the BB. I just call. On the flop I bump it up with all the equity for my overs and flushes and straights OH MY!

PS&gt; not really straights, just got a little carried away.

[wrto4556]

I check the turn UI.

[TwoShedsJackson]

[ QUOTE ]
Should I raise this preflop the first time it gets to me?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

I check/call the turn.

[milesdyson]

Makes no sense. You killed your action for the rest of the hand.

Raising the first time around is good in my book, with 4 limpers and the button. But, imagine how perfect it would have been to limp and have BB raise and bet the flop so you could trap pretty much the entire field for 2+ here.

Also, I would check through on the turn. Yeah, you have many outs, but you don't want to get raised here. Plus, you show weakness here, get bet into on the river (when you hit) and you can raise it up.

[droolie]

I don't raise this preflop. I may be alone on this one but I want a cheap investment with this hand regardless of the number of limpers.

Check the turn. Getting C/Red here would blow.

[bottomset]

[ QUOTE ]
This table was full of fvcktards.
Should I raise this preflop the first time it gets to me?

Any comments to this point?

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah the key to beating bad players is to play good solid poker, which means don't make stupid plays like this, just raise it the first time around QTs is a good multiway hand

[bear187]

Might be irrelevant, but for a loose game SSH reccomends raising this hand, but simply playing in a "tight" game. edit: 7 to the flop constitutes as loose, i read the hand wrong and thought it was 5.

[wrto4556]

Yeah, but you real have no fold equity. Is the turn bet for value because the pot's so big? I like to see if I hit one of my 12 outs for free.

[reubenf]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, but you real have no fold equity. Is the turn bet for value because the pot's so big? I like to see if I hit one of my 12 outs for free.

[/ QUOTE ]

I count more than 12 outs. But with 3 callers he only needs 11.5 anyway for it to be a value bet.

[reubenf]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I would check through on the turn. Yeah, you have many outs, but you don't want to get raised here. Plus, you show weakness here, get bet into on the river (when you hit) and you can raise it up.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand the second part of this reasoning, that you don't want to trade turn bets for river bets. But so what if he gets raised on the turn? Those guys may call two bets cold, and if one folds, he's at least really close to still having equity.

[GrunchCan]

The PF LRR was bad. If you had just called, BB would have bet out on the flop and you could have raised in position, taking the whole field for 2. As it was, you faced everyone with 2 PF and some folded, followed by some folding the flop who may have called along had you not represented AA.

Check-call the turn, you don't have an equity edge against 3 opponents.

[reubenf]

[ QUOTE ]
Check-call the turn, you don't have an equity edge against 3 opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

How are you counting fewer than 12 outs?

[Cooker]

I don't love the 3 bet preflop. I would rather do it with a pocket pair than a suited 1 gap or even a suited connecter (since you are stuck with a drawing hand even when you hit the flop). Also notice, with the PP you can now see the turn with the 3 bet as long as it is just 1 SB to you on the flop. I would probably want another caller or 2 in to make this play since you are killing your implied odds though. To be profitable, you need to get a little more than 3 BB into the pot when you hit which isn't unreasonable given 5 other players, but you are also going to need to have to cover your drawing odds as well.

I don't get the turn bet since you have executed the free card play perfectly and you aren't getting enough return for the bet itself to be profitable unless you figure almost everyone calling (so they did, but that doesn't mean you knew they would). Certainly, the turn bet is +EV, but I think it is slightly lower +EV than just checking through.

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Check-call the turn, you don't have an equity edge against 3 opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

How are you counting fewer than 12 outs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, first of all, even with 12 full outs you don't have an equity edge. 12 outs are 12:35 to hit, or 1:3. There are 3 opponents. No edge. That's not to say you don't have equity. You just don't have more than average. See?

Second of all, Hero isn't drawing to the NFD. You need to discount the 9 outs for the flush by more than zero. Depends on how passive your opponents are, but I think discounting the FD to 8 seems reasonable. This cuts yet more out of your equity.

[wrto4556]

I say 12 because im counting overs as .5 outs a piece. 9 diamonds and 3 overs. Still, are we sure we'll get 3 callers in this spot every time?

[wrto4556]

What I ment to say was:

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Check-call the turn, you don't have an equity edge against 3 opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

How are you counting fewer than 12 outs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, first of all, even with 12 full outs you don't have an equity edge. 12 outs are 12:35 to hit, or 1:3. There are 3 opponents. No edge. That's not to say you don't have equity. You just don't have more than average. See?

Second of all, Hero isn't drawing to the NFD. You need to discount the 9 outs for the flush by more than zero. Depends on how passive your opponents are, but I think discounting the FD to 8 seems reasonable. This cuts yet more out of your equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[reubenf]

[ QUOTE ]
I say 12 because im counting overs as .5 outs a piece. 9 diamonds and 3 overs. Still, are we sure we'll get 3 callers in this spot every time?

[/ QUOTE ]

Counting Jacks as 0?

[reubenf]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, first of all, even with 12 full outs you don't have an equity edge. 12 outs are 12:35 to hit, or 1:3. There are 3 opponents. No edge.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I've gone dumb, but I thought it's 12:34 on the turn.

[ QUOTE ]
Second of all, Hero isn't drawing to the NFD. You need to discount the 9 outs for the flush by more than zero. Depends on how passive your opponents are, but I think discounting the FD to 8 seems reasonable. This cuts yet more out of your equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree, but you have overs and you have jacks too.

[wrto4556]

that makes 13...but read grunches post about equity. Even with 13 outs the bet on the turn isn't for value.

EDIT: I just made an ass of myself. I didn't see the gut shot with the jack. I'm stymied(sp?)

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
but I thought it's 12:34 on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your'e right, it is :34. My bad.

[reubenf]

[ QUOTE ]
that makes 13...but read grunches post about equity. Even with 13 outs the bet on the turn isn't for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not true, any greater than 11.5 is for value if you're getting 3 callers.

[droolie]

The reason why the trun bet is not for value is because your equity edge is very narrow. You might get C/Red by BB and the other two then fold. This is not what you want. You really need to be absolutely sure all others will simply call your bet for this to have value. You are highly unlikely to win the pot with a bet here on the turn. Take the free card.

[wrto4556]

You're right...but like droolie is saying, what about the C/R? Will that influence it?

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
you have overs and you have jacks too.

[/ QUOTE ]

I totally discounted the overs, becasue I think spiking a pair considering the action and the depth of the field will win 0% of the time.

I admit this may be a conservative estimate of how often TPMK will win, but I don't believe that it is. I'm willing to hear counter-arguments.

Therefore, to be clear, my estimation of Hero's hand strength is:

4 Jacks to the NS + 8 Diamonds to the FD = 12 outs total.

Note how this corrects a math error in my earlier post. Same action results, however.

[reubenf]

[ QUOTE ]
I totally discounted the overs, becasue I think spiking a pair considering the action and the depth of the field will win 0% of the time.

I admit this may be a conservative estimate of how often TPMK will win, but I don't believe that it is. I'm willing to hear counter-arguments.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, that's fair. Thanks for tolerating me /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you have overs and you have jacks too.

[/ QUOTE ]

I totally discounted the overs, becasue I think spiking a pair considering the action and the depth of the field will win 0% of the time.

I admit this may be a conservative estimate of how often TPMK will win, but I don't believe that it is. I'm willing to hear counter-arguments.

Therefore, to be clear, my estimation of Hero's hand strength is:

4 Jacks to the NS + 8 Diamonds to the FD = 12 outs total.

Note how this corrects a math error in my earlier post. Same action results, however.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do 6's not count as outs? Worst case scenario, he's chopping with one other person making 6's worth 2 outs here. That's 13 outs, which is about 2.53:1 to hit, so betting the turn is +EV in the event you get three callers (which seems quite possible given the size of the pot). In all honesty, I think you have a 15 outer minimum here, and I think there's a small possibility a pair of Q's will win, so I'd say you have between 15 and 15.5 outs.

Other than preflop, I think this hand is fine. Preflop isn't as bad as people are making it out to be, though.

Rob

[reubenf]

[ QUOTE ]
You're right...but like droolie is saying, what about the C/R? Will that influence it?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't have confidence in my estimation here, but I don't think that's devastating as they just may call 2 cold. And if only one of them folds, and IF you're counting the overs as partial outs, then you're still not in a bad situation. Of course I've now been convinced that the overs shouldn't really be counted.

[bottomset]

Grunch if you are discounting the flushdraw, you only have 11outs .. 3Jacks to the nuts, 8outs for FD(the J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif) overlaps .. the 6's add 1-2 more outs

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
How do 6's not count as outs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, I totally missed the other side of the straight. The 6's are probably worth somewhere between 2 and 3 outs, swinging the equity on this hand to an edge. So a bet is called for after all.

Just goes to show you. Poker's hard.

I still hate the LRR, however.

[jacki]

[ QUOTE ]
I still hate the LRR, however.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for all the responses.
I didn't really like the LRR either, but when BB raised I felt I had a chance to make up for the mistake I made by not raising the first time.

I was also pretty sure about the turn bet, without counting the overs.

I'm still rusty after a long break without any serious poker, so thanks for all the responses.

Not that it matters, but here's the river action:
K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
SB checks, BB bets, UTG folds, I raise, SB calls, BB calls.

SB has KJo, BB has QJo, and MHIG.
The overs would have been no good for me.

[reubenf]

[ QUOTE ]
SB has KJo, BB has QJo, and MHIG.
The overs would have been no good for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

OTOH, you lost no river bets by betting the turn.