rank these stealing hands

[schwza]

i was chastised by a number of people for trying to steal with A5s from MP1 (chip counts pasted below the hands). i'm curious how people would rank various stealing hands.

67s
66
AT
KQ
98o
A5s
K5s

obviously, none of these hands are very good, but if you had decided to capitalize on your tight image and try to steal from MP1, how would you rank these hands?

here's the setup:

$30 rebuy post rebuy-period. i have well over average, roughly 40th out of 200, 60 pay. i don't remember any reads, so assume none. i hadn't been raising much.

UTG+1 (t20580)
Hero (t32500)
MP2 (t29640)
MP3 (t9110)
CO (t13165)
Button (t17985)
SB (t11875)
BB (t20740)
UTG (t20198)

blinds 400/800, ante 75. table is 9 handed.

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with ??
2 folds, Hero raises to T2400

[Absolution]

98o
67s
K5s
A5s
66 ~ AT ~ KQ

[hurlyburly]

67s
98o
66
AT
KQ
A5s
K5s

I like them that way because of the cold caller. AT and KQ are great for taking a pot down uncontested, but need so much care if they hit. I like to steal with drawing hands so K5s is always mucked.

I absolutely love those small suited connectors and medium connectors, because they are so easy to get away from and when they hit noone gives you credit for them.

[Bernas]

I wouldn't call them stealing hands.
Stealing hands would be more like 72 Off, 93, 85 etc.

Cheers,
Brad

[mrbaseball]

I'd fold every one of those from MP1 and pop every one from the cutoff or button if unopened. The cards don't really matter in steals but position does and while I will make the ocassion steal attempt from ep I'll fold them to any return fire which means the crappier the cards the better because they are easier to lay down.

[Absolution]

Would this change if you were at a passive table that was more apt to cold call your raises instead of reraise?

[mrbaseball]

Not really. I concentrate on situations and opportunities. MP1 is a bad situation with little opportunity unless you have a premium holding. If I'm gonna make moves I'll make them with better position. That said at a table like you describe I'd take a shot or two from ep but I wouldn't make a habit out of it but my preferred steal technique from ep is to limp and fire at the flop. Depending on the situation and opportunity of course /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[freehat]

KQ
AT
66
67s
89o
A5s
K5s

I dont really get some of the reasoning such as choosing 67suited and 89o over kq, such as 67 or 89 is much easier to play postflop, cause you can checkfold way more flops. The name of the game is to maximize your EV, not avoiding tough decisions, and I think that KQ has more EV than 67 or 89 in this situation. Most of time with 67 or 89 you will be flopping middle pair which may or may not be good, so i think there is still some tough decisionmaking. Whatever with KQ sometimes you will get cold-called and lose to AQ on a Q high flop, but this is nowhere near enough to say KQ is a worse hand than 67 or 89 in this situation.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't call them stealing hands.
Stealing hands would be more like 72 Off, 93, 85 etc.

Cheers,
Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

i would define "stealing hand" as a hand that you really don't want to get to called with. this is true for both 72o and K5s. K5s just has a few more ways to get a fortunate flop.

[The Truth]

AT
66
KQ
A5s


I agree, the point is to get your money in with a hand that has the greatest chance to win the pot, not the hand that is the easiest to play. Not to say that it is wrong to steal with suited connectors, it is standard, its just that i would rather have KQ than 67s .

I'm assuming with a steal raise you expect it to get heads up if you get any action at all.

[hurlyburly]

We're talking steals here, not +EV play. I'd much rather be playing 67 or 89 than AT KQ against cold callers when a steal attempt fails (I can't bring myself to steal with total crap as others suggest, and suspect that it isn't as successful as some say).

If you flop middle pair, that's not a tough decision at all. Check/fold pick a better spot or raise with position, release against strength. If you're holding 89 and 7TJ or 88Q flops, you're going to get paid off often enough to make up for the times that you miss.

KQ and AT will get you in trouble too often when you do hit, or tend to look better against a re-raise. I don't really put those in the category of "stealing" anyway, as they can be legitimate raising hands as you suggest.

[Bernas]

I would call this a "Semi-Bluff".

[Absolution]

BUT, K5 has many more ways to get you a flop that you think is fortunate, but really is not.

[hurlyburly]

Does this mean that 67s, 89o, and ATo are standard raising hands? Stealing with complete weakness is potentially a waste of chips. Attempting a steal with a weaker hand allows you the luxury of possibly making a hand.

Sure all of those can be folded easily to a reraise, but if the reraise is small or if they just coldcall you, why not have a hand that could win a pot? 67s has a lot of odds for calling a reraise or play against multiple callers anyway.

I guess the point is, if legitimate raising hands comprise 10-15%, what category do the 16-40% fall into? That's my steal bucket, but to each his own.

[TylerK]

[ QUOTE ]
Does this mean that 67s, 89o, and ATo are standard raising hands? Stealing with complete weakness is potentially a waste of chips. Attempting a steal with a weaker hand allows you the luxury of possibly making a hand.

Sure all of those can be folded easily to a reraise, but if the reraise is small or if they just coldcall you, why not have a hand that could win a pot? 67s has a lot of odds for calling a reraise or play against multiple callers anyway.

I guess the point is, if legitimate raising hands comprise 10-15%, what category do the 16-40% fall into? That's my steal bucket, but to each his own.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry to hijack, but is this the same HurlyBurly that I was chatting with during my crash and burn in the Stars $10 R&A last night?

[ZeeJustin]

Clearly those hands change in order depending on the scenario, but for this specific one; I would rate the hands as follows:
66
76s
KQo
A5s
ATo
98o
K5s

ATo and KQo are pretty low, because when you hit the flop, you will win it right there, or often lose a big pot. With 76s, you can still bet and pick up the pot when an ace flops, and youll also get paid off quite often when the flop hits you, because your opponent will think you missed.

Edit: after seeing how badly other people ranked these hands, its important to note that you cant take the above concept too far. K5s will only be better off than KQo a small percent of the time, and still has domination problems.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
BUT, K5 has many more ways to get you a flop that you think is fortunate, but really is not.

[/ QUOTE ]

one thing i was curious about was how many people would rate K5s over A5s. i have been more willing to steal with A5 in the past, but it occured to me as i was typing the list that K5 is probably the better hand. you're going to get called by a blind holding AJ much more likely than KJ, and the possibility of running into the nut flush in what will probably be a HU pot does not seem too high.

obviously, i'd be trying to keep the pot small and get to a cheap showdown if i flopped top pair with either.

for a MP1 steal with ~40x behind, here would be my rankings:

67s (not dominated, many draw possibilities, incl. 2nd pair)
66 (have something to showdown, could flop huge)
KQ (will have kicker problems, fear A on turn/river)
98o (if a loose player calls or shortie pushes with A9, bad news. few good draws)
AT (AJ/AQ could coldcall/blind D, leaving you in bad shape)
K5s (bad, but preferable to A5s)
A5s (bad. too likely dominated. very few favorable flops.)

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
Clearly those hands change in order depending on the scenario, but for this specific one; I would rate the hands as follows:
66
76s
KQo
A5s
ATo
98o
K5s

ATo and KQo are pretty low, because when you hit the flop, you will win it right there, or often lose a big pot. With 76s, you can still bet and pick up the pot when an ace flops, and youll also get paid off quite often when the flop hits you, because your opponent will think you missed.

Edit: after seeing how badly other people ranked these hands, its important to note that you cant take the above concept too far. K5s will only be better off than KQo a small percent of the time, and still has domination problems.

[/ QUOTE ]

ZJ, could you elaborate on why you like A5s? i had convinced myself i'd been making a mistake treating it as a good stealing hand.

[hurlyburly]

Yeah! Hey man! Had to dodge a 15-outer or 2 but managed to survive to 15th. Bummed me out when you got knocked out, I was hoping we'd hook up at a later table (with you on my right again, of course).

[TylerK]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah! Hey man! Had to dodge a 15-outer or 2 but managed to survive to 15th. Bummed me out when you got knocked out, I was hoping we'd hook up at a later table (with you on my right again, of course).

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I was sitting comfortably on the leaderboard for most of it, until I decided to get hardheaded (one might say boneheaded) with a middle pair that I flopped for free out of the BB. My reads had been dead on up until that point, so I might have been a little overconfident. Ah well, there's always tomorrow!

[Bernas]

Because of the added nut flush and straight possibilities.

[Absolution]

Maybe we need to define what a good stealing hand is. I think it's very situational. On a loose-passive table where you might get called, but not raised I'd be inclined to tighten up my stealing standards as I want to have something that will win enough time to pick up the fold equity I'm missing. On a tight table I can loosen my stealing standards and don't mind stealing with very weak hands as they are easy to let go when reraised.

[hurlyburly]

Yeah, there's always tomorrow. I blew $300 since my last win to win $405 last night, but I'm happy treading water til I can get into some live tournys a bit more or hit a big score. That tourny endgame was absolutely brutal, blinds were so freakin high.

I was reviewing last night's hand history and 1st hand you went all in from the button. Do you remember what you had? I was pissed because I had 9-10ss and really wanted to see that flop. Figured it was on a dare, but didn't have the hand to call it (only budgeted initial rebuy and add-on for that game).

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe we need to define what a good stealing hand is. I think it's very situational. On a loose-passive table where you might get called, but not raised I'd be inclined to tighten up my stealing standards as I want to have something that will win enough time to pick up the fold equity I'm missing. On a tight table I can loosen my stealing standards and don't mind stealing with very weak hands as they are easy to let go when reraised.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is all pretty obvious and true, but it's not really relevant to the question.

there's always some chance you'll get called. given that, what do you prefer to steal with?

[Bernas]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe we need to define what a good stealing hand is. I think it's very situational. On a loose-passive table where you might get called, but not raised I'd be inclined to tighten up my stealing standards as I want to have something that will win enough time to pick up the fold equity I'm missing. On a tight table I can loosen my stealing standards and don't mind stealing with very weak hands as they are easy to let go when reraised.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is all pretty obvious and true, but it's not really relevant to the question.

there's always some chance you'll get called. given that, what do you prefer to steal with?

[/ QUOTE ]

In that case, absolute garbage. Then, if I am reraised I can easily let it go.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe we need to define what a good stealing hand is. I think it's very situational. On a loose-passive table where you might get called, but not raised I'd be inclined to tighten up my stealing standards as I want to have something that will win enough time to pick up the fold equity I'm missing. On a tight table I can loosen my stealing standards and don't mind stealing with very weak hands as they are easy to let go when reraised.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is all pretty obvious and true, but it's not really relevant to the question.

there's always some chance you'll get called. given that, what do you prefer to steal with?

[/ QUOTE ]

In that case, absolute garbage. Then, if I am reraised I can easily let it go.

[/ QUOTE ]

so you'd fold A5s but raise A2o just to make your fold to the reraise more clearly right?

[TylerK]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, there's always tomorrow. I blew $300 since my last win to win $405 last night, but I'm happy treading water til I can get into some live tournys a bit more or hit a big score. That tourny endgame was absolutely brutal, blinds were so freakin high.

I was reviewing last night's hand history and 1st hand you went all in from the button. Do you remember what you had? I was pissed because I had 9-10ss and really wanted to see that flop. Figured it was on a dare, but didn't have the hand to call it (only budgeted initial rebuy and add-on for that game).

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup, I have the HH. I tend to get pretty wild in the beginning of a rebuy tournament, especially in the first few hands, for image-building purposes and such. However, in this case I had AKs, so nice laydown. I was hoping for some other rebuy maniacs at the table to take a shot, but it turned out not to be that kind of crowd.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, there's always tomorrow. I blew $300 since my last win to win $405 last night, but I'm happy treading water til I can get into some live tournys a bit more or hit a big score. That tourny endgame was absolutely brutal, blinds were so freakin high.

I was reviewing last night's hand history and 1st hand you went all in from the button. Do you remember what you had? I was pissed because I had 9-10ss and really wanted to see that flop. Figured it was on a dare, but didn't have the hand to call it (only budgeted initial rebuy and add-on for that game).

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup, I have the HH. I tend to get pretty wild in the beginning of a rebuy tournament, especially in the first few hands, for image-building purposes and such. However, in this case I had AKs, so nice laydown. I was hoping for some other rebuy maniacs at the table to take a shot, but it turned out not to be that kind of crowd.

[/ QUOTE ]

you guys ever heard of a PM?

[Damian UK]

in some respects I prefer to steal with rubbish hands, coz they are much easier to throw away when someone goes over the top at you!

74o - attempt to steal and then throw away to AI reraise

K 10s - now what do you do?

save it for the rubbish and then hope you hit a monster!

just my thoughts

Damian