Losing 15 BB in 7 hands... [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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ElSapo

02-11-2005, 11:50 AM

I started playing this morning and in seven hands dropped about 15 bets. I see some errors in the hand but I also see just getting unlucky. I've been having a lot of trouble lately with the loose-aggro games. To what extent is this bad luck or bad play?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif. Hero posts a blind of $2.
UTG calls, MP1 calls, 1 fold, Hero (poster) checks, Button calls, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: (5.50 SB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 players)
BB bets, UTG folds, MP1 folds, Hero folds, Button calls.

Turn: (3.75 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB bets, Button calls.

River: (5.75 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: 5.75 BB

--

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, MP1 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 bets, CO calls, SB folds, BB folds, UTG folds.

Turn: (3.50 BB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
MP1 checks, CO checks.

River: (3.50 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
MP1 bets, CO calls.

Final Pot: 5.50 BB

--

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, Hero raises, MP2 calls, CO 3-bets, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG calls, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (15.50 SB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, MP2 checks, CO bets, BB folds, UTG calls, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (9.75 BB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks, MP2 checks, CO bets, UTG folds, Hero folds, MP2 folds.

Final Pot: 10.75 BB

--

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
Hero raises, 5 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

Turn: (3.25 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

River: (5.25 BB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 8.25 BB

--

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
3 folds, CO calls, 1 fold, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (3 SB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, CO bets, SB folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 2 BB

--

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
4 folds, Button calls, Hero raises, BB calls, Button calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, Button checks.

Turn: (3 BB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, Button calls.

River: (5 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

Final Pot: 7 BB

--

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif. CO posts a blind of $2.
1 fold, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO (poster) checks, mcdroogy checks, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, BB folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, mcdroogy folds, Hero caps, SB calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (21 SB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
SB bets, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, MP1 caps, MP2 folds, CO calls, Hero calls, SB calls.

Turn: (19 BB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
SB checks, MP1 bets, CO calls, Hero calls, SB calls.

River: (23 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
SB checks, MP1 bets, CO calls, Hero calls, SB calls.

Final Pot: 27 BB

lu_hawk

02-11-2005, 11:57 AM

I didn't realize 15BB in 7 hands is as bad as you make it sound. You can't do much different. I would raise PF in hand 1, in the KK hand I would be tempted to fold to the flop cap because what can he possibly have there?

ElSapo

02-11-2005, 12:00 PM

Agreed but on both streets I'm about where I need to be for the two outer, and once I get to the river I just can't fathom folding this. However, maybe I should have found the fold...Otherwise, yeah, it's probably not as bad as I make it out to be, but of late I've had a lot of problems playing in games with loose aggressives. Probably just short-term luck.

btspider

02-11-2005, 12:02 PM

KTs, raise PF. rest is fine.

AJs, bet the flop 3-way

the rest i play the same.

KK, you don't have to win this many times to show a huge profit. MP1 looks to have 4x this time and i guess SB shows AA. folding before the river would have been wrong.

chief444

02-11-2005, 12:05 PM

I raise pf in hand 1. So that's another .5 BB I lose.

I probably call the check/raise with QQ only because the board is very scary. But I really can't argue with the fold and it's probably correct. I just tend to make some loose river calls early on until I get some better reads is all.

So I lose at least .5 BB's more, possibly 1.5 more.

edit...Oh and I bet the flop with AJs.

ElSapo

02-11-2005, 12:07 PM

Ok, this is pretty much what I thought. I also considered the KTs raise but generally wait for a couple more players.

The AJs hand I was getting gun-shy I think, but bet when the board paired. River bet may not have been right, I think. Actually, the AJs hand is the one I have the most issues with -- he showed 37s for one pair, I believe.

Correct about the SB AA hand.

ElSapo

02-11-2005, 12:08 PM

I actually like checking behind with QQ, and regretted betting once I did, but having bet I like folding to the raise.

chief444

02-11-2005, 12:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I actually like checking behind with QQ, and regretted betting once I did, but having bet I like folding to the raise.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not a bad option. I hate checking overpairs heads up here but at the same time I hate folding an overpair to a raise against an unknown when an obvious scare card hits. I'd rather check it than bet/fold for sure.

btspider

02-11-2005, 12:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, this is pretty much what I thought. I also considered the KTs raise but generally wait for a couple more players.

[/ QUOTE ]

but you often have the best hand or dominate the limpers. its not a pot building raise... its a button purchasing, blind folding, win more often with a pair, win UI occasionally raise.

[ QUOTE ]
The AJs hand I was getting gun-shy I think, but bet when the board paired. River bet may not have been right, I think. Actually, the AJs hand is the one I have the most issues with -- he showed 37s for one pair, I believe.

[/ QUOTE ]

he isn't folding a pair once he calls your turn bet. he already suspects AK trying to buy the pot. i think you can check the river. a weak pair may check behind. a worse hand which would not have called may bluff.

Aces McGee

02-11-2005, 12:28 PM

Hey El Sapo

I bet the flop with AJs. The turn bet is okay, I guess, but given that you checked the flop and the top card paired, I don't think you're convincing anybody fold a pair. So I think it's really important that you bet the flop, or just completely give up and only bet the turn if you hit something. I'm not a huge fan of the river bet. I can't think of any better hands that he'll fold, and I don't think he calls with worse aces too often.

-McGee

Aces McGee

02-11-2005, 12:30 PM

I think if you routinely check behind with QQ in this situation, you're leaving bets on the table.

I probably call the checkraise, too, but I'm far from confident that it's the right thing to do.

chief444

02-11-2005, 12:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I actually like checking behind with QQ, and regretted betting once I did, but having bet I like folding to the raise.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with Aces that this would be very easy to call you down with any pair after you checked the flop. So the turn bet may be OK since it's reasonable to think you do have the best hand however there's really nothing to be gained by betting the river.

Aces McGee

02-11-2005, 12:47 PM

Chief

Thanks for agreeing with me, but I think you quoted the wrong hand in your post.

-McGee

scrub

02-11-2005, 01:11 PM

I dropped 50 bets in my first 20 hands last night. Sometimes you get whacked--especially in aggressive games.

Hang in there!

(I haven't had coffee yet, so I didn't read the hands.)

scrub

flair1239

02-11-2005, 01:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
Hero raises, 5 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

Turn: (3.25 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

River: (5.25 BB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 8.25 BB

--

[/ QUOTE ]

On this hand I think if you were going to fold to a river raise that you should not bet it. I agree that worse hands will call this river, and also agree that the majority of the time, the raise means your beat. But also somebody may play a hand like AJ like this (After all check-call, check-call, check-raise seems to be the "expert play" du jour these days.) Also the way you played the hand is no different than the way alot of people would play AK.

I don't think it would be weak tight not to bet a river with 3 to a flush and three to a straight. I would favor taking the showdown as opposed to betting and folding to a raise.

chief444

02-11-2005, 01:53 PM

Whoops. Yes I meant the AJs hand. I don't know what I copied the QQ quote in there for. Thanks for clarifying.

scrub

02-11-2005, 02:08 PM

You've got to raise preflop with KTs there--the button is shiny and you want it.

Stellar fold with K2s.

AQ is fine.

I think you should have called with the QQ unless you knew the chekcraiser. A friend of mine just moved up to 2/4, so I've been playing a little 2/4 before I go to bed recently to get a feel for the texture so that I can talk to her abobut the games, and I've been C/R bluffed (or raised by people who thought they were slowplaying KJ or something) way more often than I would have expected. If you knew who was doing it, it's probably a good fold, but I think you're better off calling unless you knew the opponent to passive and rational.

Your 87o play is money.

You have to bet the flop with AJs.

KK is fine.

scrub

ElSapo

02-11-2005, 02:30 PM

A question about the KTs hand... Is this still a raise after two limpers even if I did not post?

sfer

02-11-2005, 02:56 PM

Yes. The post makes it easier but the button and the strength of your hand are enough.

sfer

02-11-2005, 02:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
(I haven't had coffee yet, so I didn't read the hands.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Have a Mountain Dew. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

pudley4

02-11-2005, 02:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
A question about the KTs hand... Is this still a raise after two limpers even if I did not post?

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely. You still are likely to have the best hand, you have a hand that plays well multiway (in case the blinds call), you have a hand that plays well against few players (in case everyone else folds), you may buy the button (this is very helpful), you may get the flop checked to you and you can take a free card...

Lots of reasons

ElSapo

02-11-2005, 03:23 PM

Yes, there are lots of reasons. I'm still not enamored of KTs, however. That said, I'm obviously in the minority and the hand has more value than I give it credit for. But how low are you going with this? QTs? JTs? JQs? 99?

I didn't mean for this thread to turn into a pre-flop discussion... I can read some once I get home I guess.

scrub

02-11-2005, 03:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, there are lots of reasons. I'm still not enamored of KTs, however. That said, I'm obviously in the minority and the hand has more value than I give it credit for. But how low are you going with this? QTs? JTs? JQs? 99?

I didn't mean for this thread to turn into a pre-flop discussion... I can read some once I get home I guess.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's an automatic raise with all of the hands you listed unless you're dealing with a solid limper who is likely to have a dominating hand and will play v. well after the flop.

scrub

Redeye

02-11-2005, 04:13 PM

I'm interested in others thoughts on the AQ hand. I'm wondering if calling this down isn't a bad play here. Assuming villian bets on the river we're getting 11.75:2 effective odds to call this down. In order to break even we'd have to win about 15% of the time, or (I may be wrong about this) split the pot about 30% of the time. Given some possible 3-bet hands it would seem that the odds of villian having AK here would be great enough that this call down may show a profit.

There are:

1 JJ left
1 TT
3 AA
3 QQ
6 KK
12 AK

Giving 12/26 or 46% chance villian has AK. If villian is aggressive at all and you could throw in hands like AQs or something like 99 and 88, this would increase the chance that we are atlease splitting. Also, we have outs against QQ, KK and AK here.

Anyone agree with this analysis?

Buck_65

02-11-2005, 04:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm interested in others thoughts on the AQ hand. I'm wondering if calling this down isn't a bad play here. Assuming villian bets on the river we're getting 11.75:2 effective odds to call this down. In order to break even we'd have to win about 15% of the time, or (I may be wrong about this) split the pot about 30% of the time. Given some possible 3-bet hands it would seem that the odds of villian having AK here would be great enough that this call down may show a profit.

There are:

1 JJ left
1 TT
3 AA
3 QQ
6 KK
12 AK

Giving 12/26 or 46% chance villian has AK. If villian is aggressive at all and you could throw in hands like AQs or something like 99 and 88, this would increase the chance that we are atlease splitting. Also, we have outs against QQ, KK and AK here.

Anyone agree with this analysis?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly what I initially thought when I glanced over that hand, so I'm glad to see at least somebody else has the same idea. I think the pot is just barely large enough to call it down.

scrub

02-11-2005, 04:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm interested in others thoughts on the AQ hand. I'm wondering if calling this down isn't a bad play here. Assuming villian bets on the river we're getting 11.75:2 effective odds to call this down. In order to break even we'd have to win about 15% of the time, or (I may be wrong about this) split the pot about 30% of the time. Given some possible 3-bet hands it would seem that the odds of villian having AK here would be great enough that this call down may show a profit.

There are:

1 JJ left
1 TT
3 AA
3 QQ
6 KK
12 AK

Giving 12/26 or 46% chance villian has AK. If villian is aggressive at all and you could throw in hands like AQs or something like 99 and 88, this would increase the chance that we are atlease splitting. Also, we have outs against QQ, KK and AK here.

Anyone agree with this analysis?

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought about it--I'd probably call down HU, and I think you can make a case for calling down here.

If I was going to continue with the hand, I'd probably checkraise the turn, though.

scrub

chux52

02-11-2005, 04:36 PM

im confused why he should bet the flop on the AJs hand?

J.R.

02-11-2005, 04:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
QTs? JTs? JQs? 99?

[/ QUOTE ]

it depends on your image and the limpers and the blinds but generally speaking, you'll often have position, intiative, deception and better postflop skills than your opponents. In light of all that you don't need a super hand to make the pfr +ev. My preflop thought process is something like: do I have reason to not raise all of those hands? At 2-4 I would imagine I almost always do not have such reason with no raise in front. All three of those hands are easy raises IMO. Play some 1-2 6-max and get comfortable opening up your game, pounding is fun and sooo profitable.

Redeye

02-11-2005, 04:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is exactly what I initially thought when I glanced over that hand, so I'm glad to see at least somebody else has the same idea. I think the pot is just barely large enough to call it down.

[/ QUOTE ]

For some odd reason I've been running into this situation a ridiculous amount lately with large aces and a doubly paired board. I've actually found that people have been taking shots at these types of boards and I've split/won a large percentage of them. However, with such a small sample its probably being a little results oriented. I feel that the pot here and possible hands villian could have make this an attractive call down though.

bobbyi

02-11-2005, 04:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I bet the flop with AJs. The turn bet is okay, I guess, but given that you checked the flop and the top card paired, I don't think you're convincing anybody fold a pair. So I think it's really important that you bet the flop, or just completely give up and only bet the turn if you hit something.

[/ QUOTE ]
I would always bet the flop here. But, having failed to do so, I don't agree that he should just give up. I think betting the turn is better than checking. I agree that it's unlikely that someone will fold a pair, but sometimes they will and, more importantly, there is no reason to believe someone has a pair, especially with the pair board. It's pretty likely we have the best hand here and we should protect it. We don't wanted to give opponents with unpaired cards a free shot at their six outers.

Redeye

02-11-2005, 04:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I thought about it--I'd probably call down HU, and I think you can make a case for calling down here.

If I was going to continue with the hand, I'd probably checkraise the turn, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I just wasn't too worried about MP(whatever) who hasn't shown any interest in this hand so far. If he does come alive and c/r CO's bet then I think we can easily dump it at that point.

I think your idea of c/ring the turn is interesting. I imagine we're trying to specifically get AK to lay down here, and I like that idea. I imagine we definately are folding to a 3-bet if taking that line, right? So on this board do you think AK lays down often enough for it to make the c/r more profitable than a call down? I suppose we're putting in the same bets either way except with a c/r we have added fold equity against villains possible AK. My only concern is that if this gets AK to fold enough since we could be surrendering the possibility of drawing out on QQ and KK here about 1 in 15 times.

scrub

02-11-2005, 04:55 PM

One of the nice things about checkraising here is that KK and QQ are very unlikely to 3-bet you, so you suck out on them anyway. I'd imagine many of them also fail to bet the river if they call the turn and you check it to them.

scrub

bobbyi

02-11-2005, 04:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
My only concern is that if this gets AK to fold enough since we could be surrendering the possibility of drawing out on QQ and KK here about 1 in 15 times.

[/ QUOTE ]
How so? Given the board, I don't think QQ and KK are going to three-bet here, so how does a check-raise stop us from sucking out on them?

scrub

02-11-2005, 04:58 PM

Also, you're trying to get any A to fold, and you love it if an overpair decides to make an all-star laydown.

I'm not putting any more money into the pot if MP calls, but if MP folds and 3-bettor just calls, I'm leading the river and folding to a raise unless he's passive enough that I think he'll fail to value bet an overpair when checked to.

scrub

Redeye

02-11-2005, 05:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I thought about it--I'd probably call down HU, and I think you can make a case for calling down here.

If I was going to continue with the hand, I'd probably checkraise the turn, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

You right, I'm sold on your line. I had thought about it being pretty unlikely getting 3-bet by KK or QQ here and for some reason forgot about that when posting.

Brian

02-11-2005, 05:16 PM

Hi ElSapo,

Long time, no chats. I haven't read the other responses yet. Here are my thoughts:

Hand #1: Easy, easy pre-Flop raise here. From the CO, I would raise any suited broadway after 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6 limpers. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Why are you posting in the CO at a 7 man table? From what I have seen many times on these forums, it's only profitable to post in the CO at a 10 or 9-handed table. Anyone else have any insight?

Hand #2: K.

Hand #3: Getting 17:1, you pretty much have to take one off on the Flop, even though I'm not too excited about it. Assuming my opponent 3-bets mainly with AA-TT, AK, and AQ, this is a pretty horrid Flop for you. Be careful when you hit your overcards.

Hand #4: I rarely find this fold myself, but that is a leak in my game. Good fold.

Hand #5: K.

Hand #6: I bet the Flop every time that I raised pre-Flop with only 2 opponents, unless I'm trying for some sort of a deception move. I don't see any reason not to bet here. I also don't like the River bet. I don't think that there are many circumstances where betting the River with Ace-high is +EV, because you will almost always never fold a better hand or get a worse hand to call. I'm sure you know that, so I am curious as to why you bet the River. Had I bet the Flop and Turn and my opponent called on both streets, then I checked the River and he bet, I would fold. But given your odd check on the Flop, I would probably be tempted to call if he bet when I checked.

Hand #7: This is how I would have played it.

I'm going to go read the thread now so that I see why you didn't raise pre-Flop in Hand #1 or bet the Flop in Hand #6. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

-Brian

Aces McGee

02-11-2005, 06:25 PM

Yes, you're probably right.

The main point remains, though, as you suggest; The Toad has got to bet this flop.

-McGee