Interesting AA hand

[private joker]

CO was a LAG, Button was short stacked and went all in with a 3-bet on the river -- hence my call that the converter got wonky on...

How do we like this line?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, CO calls, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Flop: (11 SB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, CO calls.

Turn: (7.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 folds, CO calls, Button calls.

River: (13.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, CO folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 19.62 BB

[Niediam]

I find this hand very interesting as you are violating one of the rules of slowplaying (don't slowplay in a big pot), yet I can't talk myself into playing it any other way...

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]
I find this hand very interesting as you are violating one of the rules of slowplaying (don't slowplay in a big pot), yet I can't talk myself into playing it any other way...

[/ QUOTE ]

The only hand that beats me is quads, and if anyone has that they had it on the flop. So I lose nothing by letting people catch up to worse boats. If someone with TT-KK (that failed to raise PF for some reason) catches a 2-outer to beat me, fine -- they are drawing so slim that I'd take that risk. It would also be nice to sniff out the case 9 if it does exist -- not that I would ever fold in a million years, but it would be a fun game.

[Niediam]

The only real question is if you are missing bets because your opponents were going to come along anyway hoping that they could spike a pair and win...

[Danenania]

I think you're crazy. Getting this turn checked through would be catastrophic for you.

Bet/raise the flop and keep on betting. You could maybe consider a checkraise on a later street depending on how the action goes, but the way you played it is serious FPS.

Everyone thinks they have 6 outs when they really have none. The pot is big. This means everyone is going to call call call the whole way. Let them do it. Let them give you their money.

[gaming_mouse]

joker,

seems straightforward. i guess you could have raised the flop, but i think your line is clearly better. what about this was questionable to you?

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you're crazy. Getting this turn checked through would be catastrophic for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

With a TAG acting after him and a flop bettor, this is unlikely to happen. I think the tiny risk is worth the reward.

It's not true that everyone thinks they have 6 outs and is along for the ride. Lots of times people fold to flop raises here because they don't want to get involved, just in case they're drawing dead or because they don't have an A. This is a much more realistic concern than the turn getting checked thru, IMO.

[Shillx]

[ QUOTE ]
joker,

seems straightforward. i guess you could have raised the flop, but i think your line is clearly better. what about this was questionable to you?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to war with this hand. People will call all the way with smaller pairs. People will call with something like KQ trying to hit a dead boat. The only real threat to us is KK-TT and they have just 2 outs against us.

Brad

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
People will call all the way with smaller pairs. People will call with something like KQ trying to hit a dead boat.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. But many of those same people will lay down the turn if they're facing 2 cold on the flop. Hero got himself alot of overcallers, and I think if he had raised that flop there would have been about half as many at best.

[The Goober]

[ QUOTE ]
Lots of times people fold to flop raises here because they don't want to get involved

[/ QUOTE ]

I see the arugment for not raising the flop after button bets, because I do think that you can scare people here making them face two cold. But why not bet out on the flop in the frist place? There's no reason to expect a raise from early position, and with luck CO or button will raise you and you can call and trap the field for another bet. I also think that if someone raises your flop bet then you will have a better idea how safe it is to go for a turn CR

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
But why not bet out on the flop in the frist place?

[/ QUOTE ]

Certainly a viable line. But joker's line has the advantage of getting in a c/r on the turn. Ideally, his line pans out with him checking the flop, the next person betting, everyone calling, him smooth-calling. The turn then proceeds the same way, but he raises. When this works, I think no line is more profitable. In the actual hand, it partially worked, which is still not bad.

[bakku]

I am betting this the whole way and hoping an overcard falls

[Shillx]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But why not bet out on the flop in the frist place?

[/ QUOTE ]

Certainly a viable line. But joker's line has the advantage of getting in a c/r on the turn. Ideally, his line pans out with him checking the flop, the next person betting, everyone calling, him smooth-calling. The turn then proceeds the same way, but he raises. When this works, I think no line is more profitable. In the actual hand, it partially worked, which is still not bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong. We really need to be betting this flop. Not betting this flop is just /images/graemlins/confused.gif. We are getting just about 100% equity if no one has a nine, and by checking we risk missing precious bets that is just $$$ in our pocket. Checking this flop is just bass ackwards.

Brad

[private joker]

I considered betting the flop, and should have. The reason was I raised PF, had a tight image, and this was a passive table (save for the CO). Betting out would represent a PP, and I might get people to realize they don't want to get involved. if I check, I can see who is interested. Since the bet came late, I couldn't check-raise. I figured stop-n-going on the turn would be suspicious, so I check-raise the turn, finally giving away my hand.

I think the river plays itself. I can't give Button credit for the case 9 until we are live and he 6-bets me.

[Danenania]

"Betting out would represent a PP"

Betting out after raising preflop represents two cards. Wouldn't you also bet with AK-AT?

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
We are getting just about 100% equity if no one has a nine, and by checking we risk missing precious bets that is just $$$ in our pocket.

[/ QUOTE ]

Brad, what have we missed? There is no way the flop is getting checked thru. So you get that equity whether you bet or someone else does. I'm not saying betting the flop is wrong -- I might even agree it's preferable -- but I don't see how it is so bad either? Everyone who would put money in if you bet is going to anyway.

gm

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]


Betting out after raising preflop represents two cards. Wouldn't you also bet with AK-AT?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, and the 77 right behind me will raise to blow away the field, leaving it heads up with me and a guy drawing dead.

If I check and the bet comes from my direct left, I can check-raise the field on the flop or turn. If I bet and the raise comes from my direct left, I have narrowed a field I have no interest in narrowing. Or I could bet and get 2 or 3 folds before the button wakes up. Letting everyone see the turn for 1 bet maximizes my chance that someone will improve to 2nd best boat on the turn.

(NB: I am sort of playing Devil's Advocate here, since I do think I should have bet the flop, but I agree with GM that checking doesn't suck -- 5 way, there's no chance someone won't bet this flop; also, I ended up losing the hand, so I'd like to convince myself I at least played it well as consolation). /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
I ended up losing the hand

[/ QUOTE ]

Someone had a 9? Nothing you can do about that.

[jason_t]

He could have worked harder to hit runner runner A.