QJo, 1/2 party full

[hate]

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, BB checks.

Flop: (3.50 SB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.

River: (4.75 BB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 8.75 BB

Comments on all streets, thanks. My thoughts later.

[Dead]

Fold preflop. QJo is a very marginal hand. The rest looks fine.

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop. QJo is a very marginal hand. The rest looks fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Follow this advice if your goal in poker is to become weak tight.

This is 1/2, alot of "marginal hands" are very profitable.

Nice hand hate, I play it the same way. Betting the turn and capping the flop are both options though.

[Dead]

How is folding QJo from MP2 in a 10 person game weak tight?

[toss]

What other marginal hands do you play in MP? KT, QT, JT offsuits?

[Dead]

I just can't imagine QJ offsuit being very profitable from MP2, or the other ones you listed for that matter.

[cold_cash]

I like raising better than limping, especially if the players between you and the button are tight.

Tight players don't call raises w/ KJ, AT, QK, etc., but they often limp with them.

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]
What other marginal hands do you play in MP? KT, QT, JT offsuits?

[/ QUOTE ]


Yea. I might chuck them if the game is aggressive, but in a typical 1/2 game you can play all of these profitably if you're postflop play is good. I'm more careful with the JT and QT, but generally all of these are fine.

I'd also raise with most of these hands if it's folded to me and I'm in MP2 or MP3.

[Dead]

What's your VP$IP?

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]
What's your VP$IP?

[/ QUOTE ]

18.5 at .5/1, 18 at 1/2, 16 at 2/4.

edit: I should clarify. These hands are marginal, and you can't play the same way every time. You do have to fold these PF for just one bet sometimes, but there are also times you are right to get in there with a call or a raise.

I may have been too harsh with in my first reply, but if you can handle yourself postflop, you should call this like Hate did here.

[hate]

What marginal hands won't you raise with in MP? AJo, KJo? Maybe I should have commented preflop discussion not needed, because honestly, there's nothing skillful nor discussion-worthy about preflop play other than the obvious, and people whose only response is essentially "I don't play this hand, and you shouldn't either" piss me off. It's marginal, that doesn't [censored] mean "nobody should play this".

[toss]

Dude all I did was ask if he played KT, QT, and JT offsuit from MP.

I raise AJ in MP everytime I get it. KJ and KT under the right conditions. I generally avoid QT and JT unless I think theres a strong chance I can steal the blinds from MP3.

[hate]

I thought you were making a sarcastic comment about the weaker hands, sorry about that. The least intriguing or complex issue about hold'em for me is preflop play, and people having long discussions about preflop playing style is just an issue of risk and confidence. There are so many better and more important issues that win hands more often postflop than you'll ever see preflop. I'll raise KJo from EP at tables I've gotten more than 10-15 hand reads on, but it's not because it's a significantly stronger hand than KTo which I'll occasionally raise from LP, but because I'm pretty sure I know how to play it.

[Dead]

I agree that they can be profitable in some circumstances, but I don't think you lose much by folding these kinds of hands routinely from this position.

I will play QJo and KTo from the CO and button, muck QTo unless im in the SB(I'll complete it then), and almost always play KJ from MP2 and later, so I'm definitely not a weak-tighty. My VP$IP is around 19.

But I really dont like the offsuit little broadways much.

I also agree with cold_cash in that I think if you're going to play QJo from Mp2 after 1 limper that you should probably bring it in for a raise.

[toss]

I also agree PF strategy is straightforward and that people who don't work enough on their postflop skills won't progress. It may be a leak in my game, but I don't like playing the smaller broadways from MP.

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that they can be profitable in some circumstances, but I don't think you lose much by folding these kinds of hands routinely from this position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Poker is about pushing small edges. My offsuit broadways, excluding KQ, (KJ, KT, QJ, QT, JT) are collectively worth 0.08 BB/hand, with none of them in the red. When you filter it further to times I came into the pot volunterally, they jump to .3 BB/hand.

Anyway, in the end, these hands have made me over $100. It might be a small edge, but it adds up to real money.

To paraphrase Ed Miller, don't worry about giving up small edges to reduce variance. It costs you money, it has no real upside, and it makes poker less fun.

Being slightly laggy (profitably) preflop is the most fun in the world. Loosen up and try it out.

[toss]

Hmmmm, your stats are pretty impressive with offsuit broadways.

When I move up limits I'm going to have to start pushing smaller edges to survive and giving the smaller broadways more playtime would be a great start. Thanks for the posts guys.

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]
Hmmmm, your stats are pretty impressive with offsuit broadways.

When I move up limits I'm going to have to start pushing smaller edges to survive and giving the smaller broadways more playtime would be a great start. Thanks for the posts guys.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I'm actually much more careful with them at 2/4 than I am at micros. These are very marginal hands, and you need good circumstances to get in with them. Incidentally, the .5/1 and 1/2 tables usually are the perfect environment to play them. At 2/4, the increased aggression could easily turn these hands to the red.