Winning player can't get AA right? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

View Full Version : Winning player can't get AA right?

AgentBishop

02-10-2005, 07:49 PM

I have been using poker tracker for about the last 3200 hands (I know its a small sample size) and I am just baffled at the amount won with AA. I have gotten AA 24 time an I'm only up $7.93. Am I just holding on to it to long? Am I not aggressive enough with it? I think I am just mesmerized by AA and don't see the big picture at the table. I have been playing for about a year or so now and have won more and played more than PT shows. I only recently have started using it.
http://images.ofoto.com/photos1140/8/31/74/48/38/0/38487431806_0_ALB.jpg
http://images.ofoto.com/photos1140/8/31/74/48/58/0/58487431806_0_ALB.jpg

Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!

02-10-2005, 07:51 PM

the worst ive ran into so far was 72 consecutive KK w/o a profit. Oddly i was up overall during that period.

AgentBishop

02-10-2005, 07:53 PM

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $.50 BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

CO ($20.20)
Hero ($19.45)
SB ($52.90)
BB ($54.05)
UTG ($16.75)
UTG+1 ($49.55)
UTG+2 ($22.55)
MP1 ($52.25)
MP2 ($50)
MP3 ($35.10)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. MP2 posts a blind of $0.50.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.50, 2 folds, MP2 (poster) checks, MP3 calls $0.50, 1 fold, Hero raises to $2, 2 folds, UTG+1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls $1.50.

Flop: ($5.75) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
MP3 checks, Hero bets $1.75, MP3 calls $1.75.

Turn: ($9.25) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
MP3 checks, Hero bets $5, MP3 raises to $24.25, Hero calls $10.70 (All-In).

River: ($49.20) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $49.20
Main Pot: $40.65, between Hero and MP3. > Pot won by MP3 ($40.65).
Pot 2: $8.55, returned to MP3.

Results in white below: 
Hero has As Ad (two pair, aces and nines).
MP3 has 9s Qs (three of a kind, nines).
Outcome: MP3 wins $49.20.

AgentBishop

02-10-2005, 07:55 PM

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $.50 BB (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG+1 ($53.20)
MP1 ($85.55)
MP2 ($21.25)
CO ($18.50)
Button ($81.40)
SB ($16)
BB ($24.10)
Hero ($28)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
Hero raises to $1.5, 4 folds, Button calls $1.50, 1 fold, BB calls $1.

Flop: ($4.75) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, Button checks.

Turn: ($4.75) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $1.5, Button folds, BB calls $1.50.

River: ($7.75) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB bets $21.1 (All-In), Hero calls $21.10.

Final Pot: $49.95
Main Pot: $49.95, between BB and Hero. > Pot won by BB ($49.95).

Results in white below: 
BB has Jh 4h (straight, five high).
Hero has Ad Ac (three of a kind, aces).
Outcome: BB wins $49.95. [/color

tbach24

02-10-2005, 07:56 PM

Don't slowplay. Don't underbet pots. Problem solved.

AgentBishop

02-10-2005, 07:58 PM

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $.50 BB (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP1 ($64.55)
Hero ($70.55)
CO ($9)
Button ($37.65)
SB ($7.10)
BB ($46.75)
UTG ($31.75)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls $0.50, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1, 1 fold, Button calls $1, SB calls $0.75, BB calls $0.50, UTG calls $0.50.

Flop: ($5) K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $2.25, Button raises to $4.5, SB raises to $4.5, BB folds, UTG folds, Hero raises to $8.35, Button calls $3.85.

Turn: ($26.20) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
Hero bets $11, Button bets $11, Hero calls $0.

River: ($48.20) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)

Final Pot: $48.20
Main Pot: $48.20, between Hero, Button and SB. > Pot won by SB ($48.20).

Results in white below: 
Hero has Ad As (two pair, aces and sevens).
Button has Kh Ah (two pair, kings and sevens).
SB has 7h 6c (full house, sevens full of sixes).
Outcome: SB wins $48.20.

tbach24

02-10-2005, 07:59 PM

Also, no min-raising preflop.

zaxx19

02-10-2005, 07:59 PM

Agent if you routinely make river calls like that ...I suggest giving up poker. I hope you were drunk at the time.

If you guys are finding it hard to make money with AA you are probably(and in the case of the 2 hands posted certainly) playing them to slowly and getting far to greedy with the hand.

If you actually see yourself regularly losing money with the hand just starting moving in every time you get them seems like its clearly +EV isnt it??

TheWorstPlayer

02-10-2005, 08:02 PM

These two hands can be the reason why you are not up that much, since it is such a small sample. But on this second one you should bet on the flop. If villain has an ace he will call, if he has a set you are golden, and if he has a mid pair he is either going to call on the flop or not going to call on the turn either, so there is no point in waiting. And there are two gutshot straight draws which will bust your whole stack, so you can't let them draw for free. Then on the turn, you definitely can't bet so small now that there is a flush draw on the board. You aren't likely to fold such a strong hand even if the flush hits, so you have to bet more to cut down on the implied odds of a flush draw here.

edge

02-10-2005, 08:02 PM

Raise more preflop. Stop underbetting. Don't make that terrible call with top set on a one-card straight board.

TrailofTears

02-10-2005, 08:03 PM

A couple thoughts/ideas:

Do you make a standard raise with it or do you try to get tricky PF so you don't lose players and only pick up the blinds?

Look at individual losing hands for it and see what went wrong with them.

Same as #1 only post-flop.

The thing about AA hands are they are just a lonely pair and you have to keep that in mind and be able to lay them down with strong resistance.

I am sure you know a lot of these things but since you put the question out there I thought I would go with it. Good luck on making AA not a leak for you. Also, 3200 hands isn't a very large sample, as one bad beat (set of Aces vs. ???) can greatly distort the situation. For example, my winningest hand in my PT database (~4K hands) since starting over due to crashed HD is T8s. I have picked up two huge pots with it and yet I know it is not my best hand or anything. Just keep this in mind.

Take care and best wishes,
ToT

TrailofTears

02-10-2005, 08:05 PM

Wow, that is a nice streak. Very impressive.

AgentBishop

02-10-2005, 08:06 PM

I don't. Check my win percentage at show down. I have recently read a 2+2 thread where they thought that a high win percentage at showdown means you might not be calling enough. This seems to be AA specific. Maybe I should post this in the psychology forum...lol.

Edit: Sorry ofoto isn't working. Win percentage at showdown is over %50.

TrailofTears

02-10-2005, 08:07 PM

Stop underbetting the pot.

Edit: I am so far behind schedule it is ridiculous.

el kang

02-10-2005, 08:11 PM

You are getting married to the hand. You need to look at the board and imagine yourself as the other player and what cards he would have. All you've had is your pocket pair and what's on the board. Many hands can beat you in the examples given.

Until you fix this huge hole in your play, play AA aggressively (i.e. pre-flop and after flop) to win small pots before showdown.

istewart

02-10-2005, 08:18 PM

Just open-push PF everytime. It'll work better than this.

AgentBishop

02-10-2005, 08:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
A couple thoughts/ideas:
Do you make a standard raise with it or do you try to get tricky PF so you don't lose players and only pick up the blinds?

[/ QUOTE ]
I tend to mix it up somewhere between 3-5 times BB depending on who is left after me and what has happened before me. If there is a raise and a re-raise then I bet big, about the pot plus some depending on my position. Though I do tend to want callers and might slowplay to much at a tight table to get some callers. I guess I'm looking to "hit the home run" every time I'm at bat with AA when it might be best for me to take the double or single...lol

tbach24

02-10-2005, 08:22 PM

Low sets should be your money hand where you try to hit the home run. AA should be a hand where you take a decent pot off of someone overplaying AK. Just value bet the heck out of those things.

AgentBishop

02-10-2005, 08:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Low sets should be your money hand where you try to hit the home run. AA should be a hand where you take a decent pot off of someone overplaying AK. Just value bet the heck out of those things.

[/ QUOTE ]
That makes a lot of sense. "Just value bet the heck out of those things" sounds like good advice.

istewart

02-10-2005, 08:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A couple thoughts/ideas:
Do you make a standard raise with it or do you try to get tricky PF so you don't lose players and only pick up the blinds?

[/ QUOTE ]
I tend to mix it up somewhere between 3-5 times BB depending on who is left after me and what has happened before me. If there is a raise and a re-raise then I bet big, about the pot plus some depending on my position. Though I do tend to want callers and might slowplay to much at a tight table to get some callers. I guess I'm looking to "hit the home run" every time I'm at bat with AA when it might be best for me to take the double or single...lol

[/ QUOTE ]

You should just be pushing if you're facing multiple raises.

TheWorstPlayer

02-10-2005, 08:35 PM

AA makes a lot of money two ways: set over set and getting it in preflop. Your opponents are simply not going to get a lot of money in post flop with a hand that is worse than one pair. So stop slowplaying AA. If you aren't getting action, then play other hands faster, don't play your premium hands slower.

AgentBishop

02-10-2005, 08:36 PM

Ive been just trying to control the amount of callers to one or two so I can get the most money out of AA. Seems like that might not be getting the most VALUE out of AA where I know I'm a big favorite preflop.

tbach24

02-10-2005, 08:38 PM

What site and limits are you playing at?

AgentBishop

02-10-2005, 08:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
AA makes a lot of money two ways: set over set and getting it in preflop. Your opponents are simply not going to get a lot of money in post flop with a hand that is worse than one pair. So stop slowplaying AA. If you aren't getting action, then play other hands faster, don't play your premium hands slower.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know I tend to play KK that way and it's my biggest winner. I guess because I don't want to see and Ace on the board so I tend fast play KK more often. Should I examine how I play KK and try to do the same with AA?

I wish ofoto.com would show my image because it shows how I play more than the few hands I posted.

AgentBishop

02-10-2005, 08:44 PM

UB .25-.50 NL50. But for the past few weeks I have been buying in at $25 instead of $50. But that is another thread on its own.

AgentBishop

02-10-2005, 08:48 PM

I'm curious to if anyone has some stats on me they could post.

TheWorstPlayer

02-10-2005, 08:50 PM

Yes. Play AA like KK. KK is your biggest winner because these online monkeys are VERY willing to get it in preflop with the worst of it. For me, AA is BY FAR my biggest winner. I win a ridiculous amount with it. And KK is number 2, but nowhere NEAR as big as AA. The reason for this is that I get all-in against hands like AK-AT all the time preflop. With KK, they have a 3 outer and with AA they need some ridiculous inner straight or running Ts or whatever. That is the difference. They should both be HUGE winners for you.

Edit: Also, of course, with KK sometimes I lose my stack to AA which kills its win rate in comparison with AA.

AgentBishop

02-10-2005, 08:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Agent if you routinely make river calls like that ...I suggest giving up poker. I hope you were drunk at the time.

If you guys are finding it hard to make money with AA you are probably(and in the case of the 2 hands posted certainly) playing them to slowly and getting far to greedy with the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
Zaxx,
When I look back and review my session afterwards, I get really upset at some of these calls I made. I say "WHAT the hell was I thinking." I believe this is an experience problem more so than a knowledge one.

TheWorstPlayer

02-10-2005, 09:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm curious to if anyone has some stats on me they could post.

[/ QUOTE ]
Normally I wouldn't do this, but I like you, so here you go:
NL ($0.25), 253, 22.5296, 44.8276, 100.0000, 100.0000, 21.4286, 31.1475, -5.0500, -3.9921, 19.6721, 41.6667, 9.8814, 3.6000

(Just open up PT and you will see what each score corresponds to.)

AgentBishop

02-10-2005, 09:05 PM

Thanks. I'm guessing you either datamined me or you use a different name on UB because I have non for you. Do you have a date of the last hand played?

AgentBishop

02-10-2005, 09:18 PM

Thanks for everyone's help. I really appreciate it.

TheWorstPlayer

02-10-2005, 09:18 PM

I use a different name. And I think that is enough out of my PT database for you. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

AgentBishop

02-10-2005, 09:19 PM

LOL. Thanks TWP. You helped a lot.

TheWorstPlayer

02-10-2005, 09:28 PM

No worries. Hell, I am the worst player and I average something like 10PTBBs per hand with AA. You should, too.

amoeba

02-10-2005, 10:10 PM

I think you are slowplaying and underbetting two much.

I mean if I move of honor (preflop push) every single time I had AA and everybody folded, I would have made more in 24 times than 7 dollars.

istewart

02-10-2005, 11:06 PM

amoeba do you typically do the move of honor?

amoeba

02-10-2005, 11:15 PM

I have made it a habit to do it the first hand of the session.

first AA i mean.

AgentBishop

02-10-2005, 11:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think you are slowplaying and underbetting two much.

I mean if I move of honor (preflop push) every single time I had AA and everybody folded, I would have made more in 24 times than 7 dollars.

[/ QUOTE ]

ouch!

PoBoy321

02-10-2005, 11:53 PM

misplayed on every street.

jtr

02-11-2005, 12:35 AM

I don't mean to be nasty, Bishop, but those three hands you posted should be in a textbook as bad examples.

And yes, your plan to pretend AA is KK and play it accordingly is an excellent one.

I'm sure you'll turn it around.