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Nick Royale
02-10-2005, 05:32 PM
I would love to say I had a read on villain, but I can't...

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (3 SB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, SB calls.

Turn: (6 BB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, SB calls.

River: (9 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>...
Womble
02-10-2005, 05:39 PM
Yes I would. SB obviously doesnt like his hand that much since he didnt cap and he checked the turn. UTG+1 is probably on a flush draw.

Only realistic hands I think you could lose to is KQ or KJ, although these may have capped the flop. AK would have raised the flop, KT would have raised the turn.

Nice play
davelin
02-10-2005, 05:45 PM
Honestly I wouldn't have 3-betted the flop.
rafct
02-10-2005, 05:50 PM
I would not 3 bet the flop either.

Could you please explain what was the idea on 3-betting it?
Nick Royale
02-10-2005, 06:24 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Could you please explain what was the idea on 3-betting it?

[/ QUOTE ]
I was hoping somebody else could. At the time I had a strange feeeling SB was playing a worse king and raised to get it HU/charge a possible flush draw.
tiltaholic
02-10-2005, 06:36 PM
in the absence of a read i would call the flop raise.
if SB was a fool i'd 3-bet like you did.
VBM
02-10-2005, 06:38 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Yes I would. SB obviously doesnt like his hand that much since he didnt cap and he checked the turn. UTG+1 is probably on a flush draw.

Only realistic hands I think you could lose to is KQ or KJ, although these may have capped the flop. AK would have raised the flop, KT would have raised the turn.

Nice play

[/ QUOTE ]

interesting. i read SB's flop check-raise as 2 pair, then calling down as 2 pair scared of a set.

edit: it occurs to me, he may also be raising an A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, x/images/graemlins/diamond.gif...
shadow29
02-10-2005, 06:42 PM
How about call the flop raise, then raise a turn safecard?
reubenf
02-10-2005, 06:43 PM
How bad am I for raising PF here?
Nick Royale
02-10-2005, 06:46 PM
[ QUOTE ]
How about call the flop raise, then raise a turn safecard?

[/ QUOTE ]
I think board isn't scary enough for waiting for a safecard here. The question is if I'm ahead or behind on the flop IMO.
shadow29
02-10-2005, 06:52 PM
[ QUOTE ]
How bad am I for raising PF here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. Here's help (http://twoplustwo.com/books.html#Small%20Stakes%20Hold'em)
shadow29
02-10-2005, 06:54 PM
[ QUOTE ]
The question is if I'm ahead or behind on the flop IMO.

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Honestly, that's where reads come in. There are some opponents to whom I would fold to their raise, others against whom I would call, and others I would 3-bet.

It depends. /images/graemlins/grin.gif
VBM
02-10-2005, 06:56 PM
Nick,

I think you've either scared 2 pair on the flop into thinking you have a set, or you've scared an aggressively played 4-flush. i think the latter is the case here, b/c you have one of the kings and a 2nd 8 rivers.

i definitely fold a river check-raise and i'm not sure i bet the river at all. if he has a busted flush, i doubt he calls you. if he actually has a boat, you're checkraised.
Nick Royale
02-10-2005, 07:02 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Honestly, that's where reads come in. There are some opponents to whom I would fold to their raise, others against whom I would call, and others I would 3-bet.


[/ QUOTE ]
Agree.
Nick Royale
02-10-2005, 07:03 PM
It turns out SB is a retard so reading hands won't work here. I agree a 4-flush would be likely, but I think 2 pair would cap me most of the time.
reubenf
02-10-2005, 07:15 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How bad am I for raising PF here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. Here's help (http://twoplustwo.com/books.html#Small%20Stakes%20Hold'em)

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey now, that's not a yes/no question... I asked "how" bad am I? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Isn't it at least close? Am I just not respecting UTG+1's limp enough? What if the limper is the CO? I have to assume you're ahead of SB here much more often than not.
Nick Royale
02-10-2005, 07:20 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Isn't it at least close? Am I just not respecting UTG+1's limp enough? What if the limper is the CO? I have to assume you're ahead of SB here much more often than not.

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You've got bad position and you're not going to fold anyone very often. I guess a raise won't be terrible but i would prefer seeing this flop cheap.
LoaferGee12
02-10-2005, 07:55 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Isn't it at least close? Am I just not respecting UTG+1's limp enough? What if the limper is the CO? I have to assume you're ahead of SB here much more often than not.

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You've got bad position and you're not going to fold anyone very often. I guess a raise won't be terrible but i would prefer seeing this flop cheap.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correction: A raise is terrible here. You aren't folding anyone here and this surely isn't a value bet.
yellowjack
02-10-2005, 08:02 PM
How many orbits had you played there, and SB?

If I 3-bet the flop and got called, bet turn and check river for a free showdown UI. This is because he called the 3-bet and check-called turn. He isn't going away, and it's very unclear whether you're betting the river for value here or not.
Nick Royale
02-10-2005, 08:06 PM
[ QUOTE ]
You aren't folding anyone here and this surely isn't a value bet.

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I've seen stranger things than SB folding for a raise after completing. It won't happen often, but sometimes.

[ QUOTE ]
Correction: A raise is terrible here.

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A raise is bad, not terrible IMO. The limping hands for UTG+1 goes down way under K9s for the average Party player. The completing standars for SB should we not talk about. He's very likely to hold something worse than K9s.
Nick Royale
02-10-2005, 08:11 PM
[ QUOTE ]
How many orbits had you played there, and SB?

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About 3 I guess. But my play wasn't directly based on a read, more feeling. I guess a feeling like that often is based on the way I've seen SB play earlier even if it in this case was subconcious.

[ QUOTE ]
He isn't going away, and it's very unclear whether you're betting the river for value here or not.

[/ QUOTE ]
Intressting. I was wondering if this river bet was for value. It's slim, that's for sure.
btspider
02-10-2005, 08:49 PM
[ QUOTE ]
How about call the flop raise, then raise a turn safecard?

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those were my thoughts as well, but i think with only one other opponent, you don't have to go too crazy trying to protect your hand.

if you raise the turn, that's the last $$ you should put in the pot UI. if you pick up a draw, like a gutshot or flush draw, you should forego the free showdown raise since you can't fold to a 3-bet anymore.