JJ first hand $10+1

[spentrent]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB (t800)
Hero (t800)
UTG+1 (t800)
UTG+2 (t800)
MP1 (t800)
MP2 (t800)
MP3 (t800)
CO (t800)
Button (t800)
SB (t800)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
Hero calls t15, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP2 calls t15, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises to t30</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB calls t20, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls t15, MP2 calls t15.

Flop: (t132.50) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t100</font>, MP2 folds, MP3 calls t100, SB folds.

Turn: (t332.50) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t200</font>, MP3 calls t200.

River: (t732.50) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t100</font>, MP3 calls t100.

Final Pot: t932.50


Very first hand. I put the villain on two big cards... and a flush draw after that flop action. Is the river bet -EV? Will it only be called by a bigger pair?

[lorinda]

Is the river bet -EV?

What do you do if he pushes all-in?

Giving him the option back for such a small potential gain is the worst part of the bet, not that he might not have the range to call when behind.

Edit: I suck, I thought he had already checked.

Lori

[Scuba Chuck]

With the call on the river, I don't have a clue on what he might have? I think your river bet was OK. I assume you were expecting a fold or a push as a result. Damn, what does a call mean? Did he have pocket 7s or something? Perhaps he had a pocket pair higher than 6s, and he assumed you were betting into the flush draw, thus the call.

I hope it wasn't 78 /images/graemlins/club.gif's

What did he have?

[spentrent]

[ QUOTE ]
Giving him the option back for such a small potential gain is the worst part of the bet, not that he might not have the range to call when behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you consider this a check/fold situation? Should I have opted for check/fold on the turn?

Honestly, I was ready to fold to a river raise. I'm sure that would have done loads for my table image.

[lorinda]

The river bet is fine.

He may make a bigger bet than you want to call, so betting like this should prevent him from pushing without the goods here and keep any losses to a minimum.

I smell queens from the tone of the post, but I suspect any pair calls you, so it's not a bad bet.

Lori

[lorinda]

So you consider this a check/fold situation? Should I have opted for check/fold on the turn?

See edit, and new reply above. I managed to not read two words in the correct order, from a total of two.
Impressive really when you think about it.

Lori

[spentrent]

[ QUOTE ]
Edit: I suck, I thought he had already checked.

[/ QUOTE ]

How does this change your line? I still think I made a weak play after considering your pre-edit opinion.

EDIT: ERRR NEVERMIND, REPLYING TOO FAST!

[spentrent]

Lorinda smells correctly: QQ.

I can think of two ways to improve this hand:

1) Fold pre-flop (YUCK)
2) Slow down on the turn (YUCK)
3) Acquire the power of ESP (TASTY!)

[lorinda]

A good case of why 100 is a good bet here.

His hand is dubious enough that he doesn't want to raise you, but if you don't bet, he's likely to bet more than 100 and you're probably wise to call this more often than not.

You've cost yourself 100 chips, but you've got to the showdown that might have cost you 1000 chips or so had you not seen.

Lori

[spentrent]

[ QUOTE ]
The river bet is fine.

He may make a bigger bet than you want to call, so betting like this should prevent him from pushing without the goods here and keep any losses to a minimum.

I smell queens from the tone of the post, but I suspect any pair calls you, so it's not a bad bet.

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's what I fear: a strong player could have read middle pair from my river bet and pushed all-in "knowing" that I would fold, having called with an AK flush draw (plus 6 more probable outs) all along.

[lorinda]

$10+1

You are right, but you are misjudging the odds of bumping into a strong player.

Lori

[Phil Van Sexton]

You bet $200 on the turn and $100 on the river? That's weak. If I had any kind of hand (ie 88), I push after a weak bet like that.

You should have thought about this before betting $200 on the turn. Better lines would have been...
- 150 on turn, 150 on river
- 200 on turn, check/call up to 250 on river

Personally, I like the check/call. You certainly make money off of TT/99/88/77, and can keep most your stack if he has QQ or x5. You'll probably pick off some small bluffs too. If he bluffs all-in, oh well, you fold and save $100.

[spentrent]

[ QUOTE ]
You bet $200 on the turn and $100 on the river? That's weak. If I had any kind of hand (ie 88), I push after a weak bet like that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Conmfirming my fears... I'm weak but I'm pretty...

[ QUOTE ]
You should have thought about this before betting $200 on the turn. Better lines would have been...
- 150 on turn, 150 on river
- 200 on turn, check/call up to 250 on river

Personally, I like the check/call. You certainly make money off of TT/99/88/77, and can keep most your stack if he has QQ or x5. You'll probably pick off some small bluffs too. If he bluffs all-in, oh well, you fold and save $100.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this advice. Thanks! On the river, I suppose I transparently bet the amount I'd be willing to call. But my gut told me that it would "look like" a value bet, making it slightly tougher for a strong player to play right back. Perhaps that logic is flawed.

[spentrent]

A better question in the original post would have been: "Does the turn bet have positive expectation."

I think "no," unless my turn bet had been smaller. I mean, come on, self, would a flush draw call $200 on this turn? I doubt it.

[microbet]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure that would have done loads for my table image.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're being sarcastic right? Not that playing weak is a good thing in itself, but a weak table image early in the tourney is great. Any table image is good as long as you recognize it.

[microbet]

[ QUOTE ]
You bet $200 on the turn and $100 on the river? That's weak. If I had any kind of hand (ie 88), I push after a weak bet like that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but with 88 would you have just called the flop bet.

[spentrent]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure that would have done loads for my table image.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're being sarcastic right? Not that playing weak is a good thing in itself, but a weak table image early in the tourney is great. Any table image is good as long as you recognize it.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I'm not being sarcastic. I understand the concept you bring up -- recognizing and exploiting one's image -- but I'm hesitant to enjoy a weak-ish image after the first hand of the game. These players aren't thinking "wow, the weak guy check-raised me, I better fold." They're thinking, "I bet, he folds la la la, I have an ace."

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, but with 88 would you have just called the flop bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm. I guess not, but that's just me. I'm sure plenty of 10/1 players would though.

Regardless, I think check/calling the river is the best play given how the OP played earlier in the hand. If I had to play the hand starting on the turn, I bet 150 on the turn, then check/call a reasonable bet on the river.