Switching gears in low stakes Party SNG (5-20$)

[A_PLUS]

I follow the same basic formula that most winning players follow for the party SNGs. I am extremely tight early on, only straying for Axs or a small PP in late position in an unraised pot, knowing that I will double through a fish if I hit my set or nut flush.

Sometimes I am fortunate enough to makje a hand in the first 30, after which I am fine.

But often enough, after the 1st 30 hands, I may have limped into 2-3 pots, lost and now sit at 500-600TC, with the blinds coming to 50-100. Generally we now have 5-6 players left. The problem is, these players still aren't good, and more often than not you get little folding equity for your 500+ chips. In this spot, an extra 200-300 chips are invaluable. You can afford to see a few flops, or wait another round or so before having to push.

So, my question. Does anyone actively try to avoid the 500TC area earlier in the game when an opportunity presents itself. [an example would be making an aggressive semi-bluff against a player you think is alert and tight enough to fold their hand]. I have been trying this approach more, leaving myself open to plays during the 25-50 round, where if I lose, I am essentially going to be pushing my next Ace or 2 broadway cards.

I've had some good success with this at the 20-30$ level. As I feel more players are alert enough to make a move against. Also, I have usually seen 3-4 players per table, who are actively trying to avoid questionable situations before the 50-100 level, making them easy targets.

At the 5-10$ level, I think you are probably better off playing the waiting game.

[asofel]

[ QUOTE ]
I am extremely tight early on, only straying for Axs or a small PP in late position in an unraised pot, knowing that I will double through a fish if I hit my set or nut flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
But often enough, after the 1st 30 hands, I may have limped into 2-3 pots, lost and now sit at 500-600TC, with the blinds coming to 50-100.

[/ QUOTE ]

The first quote doesn't jive with the second, in my experience. I'll play this same way but if I limp in late in 3 hands and don't hit anything, i'll have at least 7xx chips by the 25-50 blinds. At this point I start looking for raise opportunities. A few late position raises of anywhere from 150-250 seem to get the job done and then I'm usually slightly above average stack. Keep building from there and really start letting some aggressive moves out, where applicable.

As you said, I don't think you can get the low stakes players to fold much, so as usual, don't bluff often, bet for value, and make them pay off your good hands.

[Scuba Chuck]

A+, assuming you don't play a single hand in levels 1-3, you will be starting level 4 with 655 chips.

I think you'll find that you must be bleeding some chips in the earlier levels with your hand selections. Frankly, I don't recommend playing Axs anytime, with or without position. The reason is because you seldom get PAID off for that hand. Flushes are seldom unseen, unlike a disguised straight, which when made, pays handsomely.

Another thought, I see this continuously, but if you're on the button with 33, and there are 5+ limpers in front of you, then it pays to limp. If there are fewer limpers it doesn't pay. Statistically, you only hit your set 1 in 8 times. That means you need 8 players in the pot for this to be a positive net result. 5 + you on the button, with the BB and SB is a good number. All too often I see even the newer 2+2ers asking me why I didn't limp in with 44 or something. If you're playing the $55s, where you start with 1,000 chips you can gamble with this a little, but with 800 chips, IMO, you're just bleeding.

So, try tightening up your preflop strategy a little bit for a few games, and see if that changes some things. If you're looking for new ways to pickup small pots, or the blinds, do so from the button on level 3. But even this can be dangerous.

In this spot, an extra 200-300 chips are invaluable.
Very correct statement. In fact, just an extra 100 chips are invaluable.

You can afford to see a few flops
If this is your SnG strategy on Level 4+, here is another place where you are bleeding chips. In general (and especially in levels 1-3), be the aggressor, or fold. The only time it pays to limp is if you've got a monster brewing. If you don't have the type of hand you can be aggressive with, then you know folding is the correct decision.

But often enough, after the 1st 30 hands, I may have limped into 2-3 pots, lost and now sit at 500-600TC, with the blinds coming to 50-100. Generally we now have 5-6 players left. The problem is, these players still aren't good, and more often than not you get little folding equity for your 500+ chips.

I could say a lot about this previous statement, but I will focus on just one aspect. You will benefit by becoming a student of Folding Equity. A failure to fully understand this concept is what is preventing you from attaining the results you expect. I am inferring here that you are a student of poker, but not a student of folding equity. For instance, I don't recollect you posting any HHs in the past month or so saying, "is this a good push?" and a subsequent comment as to your thinking why you have folding equity against the villain.

Let me make an example, 6 handed level 4. Hero is UTG with 650 chips. Hero is dealt A7s. Should you push?

Homework assignment. Answer the above question, and be sure to factor in all the relevant game factors into your decision model. In fact anyone interested in these concepts feel free to try and answer.

[DireWolf]

I don't really understand your statement about not limping with small pairs unless you have 8 other limpers. When do you ever get 8 limpers, i haven't seen it too much. Also, don't you have to take into account implied odds as well. Maybe you should't play the small pairs with one or two limpers, but i would think 4 limpers would give you enough odds/implied odds if you do hit your set, to make it worth it.

[Scuba Chuck]

A few late position raises of anywhere from 150-250 seem to get the job done and then I'm usually slightly above average stack.

Again, I caution you on this move. I think if you're on the button with AJs, folded around to you, this move will work more often than not. But opportunity doesn't always knock. There is more opportunity to make up chips on level 4, where stealing 150 chips is more worthwhile, than the 75 chips in level 3.

I really don't think the above general statement is good long term advice. But I do know it works. Essentially you're beginning the blindstealing mode in level 3 vs. level 4. For what, 75 chips? But you are probably setting yourself up for being called in level 4, where stealing really matters. Just MHO.

Ask yourself, "how many times can you steal, successfully over a 2 round period?"

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe you should't play the small pairs with one or two limpers, but i would think 4 limpers would give you enough odds/implied odds if you do hit your set, to make it worth it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm fine with this. Each person has their own strategy. Level 1, I'm on board with this for sure. Level 3, I'm folding. My experience with baby pairs over many SnGs is that it bleeds more than it adds. Furthermore, there was a post over the last 2 days about the results of a hand where hero hit his set on the flop with 3s. Hitting the flop does not ensure you win the pot. But hitting a set is very nice most of the time.

Frankly, I find significantly more success maximizing my folding equity than hoping to hit a set. I would believe playing for sets has a lot more ring game value than SnG value.

Thus the reason for my subsequent homework question: Any takers?

[spentrent]

Regarding your homework question: I think that the average calling hand would be KT-Ax... so I'm likely facing a coinflip. My answer changes when I know how big the blinds' stacks are (and the other players' stacks as well) -- some are more willing to live or die on a coinflip than others.

I can't picture this, UTG, as a textbook push or a textbook fold. Now tell me why I am wrong /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

[two_dogs]

This will probably be just rambling but I am trying to get a handle on this fold equity thing.
Ok you push your t650 the co and button are getting 1.2 to 1 odds the sb is getting 1.3 and the bb is getting 1.45 so they're not getting good pot odds to call but how do you calculate the % they will call? Most of the SnG players I'm up against I have very litte data on. I think I understand it depends on their tight/loose calling standards * the percentage of times they will hold such hands but how do you reasonably arrive at such conclusions with limited data at the 20s and 30s where you don't get a good data sample size.
I told you this was a ramble feel free to flame me.

[unfrgvn]

Ok, let me say that I don't disagree with the advice that is already been given in this thread. Playing tight is probably the quickest way for a losing player to become a winner. However, I have been opening up my game a little more, in response to the changes in the Party 10+1 SNG's(I believe that for the most part, they are playing tighter than they did a few months ago). I play tight for the first round or so, until I see how it's going. If pre flop raises are getting respect, then I'm going to open more pots for a raise then I used to. If I get reraised, then I probably have an easy fold. If I get called, often a continuation bet will take the pot on the flop, provided the raise has gotten it heads up. Also, if I've opened a few pots for a raise already it makes it easier to get action when I do catch a premium hand. I'm not advocating being a maniac, but I am talking about open raising hands like KQ, KJ, QJ, in POSITION, with no limpers in front. Often the only caller you get is from the BB who feels compelled to defend his blind.

Here's a hand history of a hand I would have folded 2 months ago, that turned into a nice win.
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t1375)
Hero (t712)
UTG (t790)
UTG+1 (t953)
UTG+2 (t1155)
MP1 (t415)
MP2 (t565)
MP3 (t650)
CO (t760)
Button (t625)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises to t60</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls t60, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, SB calls t45, Hero calls t30.

Ok, 34s is nothing to write home about. But, I'm last to act getting 7-1 on my T30. I call.
Flop: (t240) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks.

Not a bad flop for my hand, but with a pair on board I'm going to check and see what happens.

Turn: (t240) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>

Checked around and now I have a flush draw to go with the OESD.

<font color="#CC3333">SB bets t30</font>, Hero calls t30, UTG+1 folds, MP2 folds.

SB bets 30 into a 240 pot. I'm not folding with 13 possible outs.

River: (t300) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t300</font>, SB calls t300.

I made my str8. True, if sb has 89 I'm in bad shape, but he has been an aggressive player, and I think he would have bet a made str8 harder than this. I bet the pot.

Final Pot: t900

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
SB has Ts Kc (two pair, tens and sixes).
Hero has 3d 4d (straight, seven high).
Outcome: Hero wins t900. </font>

Did I get lucky? Sure. Will I have to lay down on the flop a big percentage of the time? Yes. But for a T30 call I got to see 4 cards and win 15 BB's and if I hit nothing it's an easy fold. As an aside, the SB chatted nice catch. What I wanted to say is what do you expect, giving me 8-1 pot odds with 13 outs. What I did say was ty.

[spentrent]

[ QUOTE ]
I play tight for the first round or so, until I see how it's going. If pre flop raises are getting respect, then I'm going to open more pots for a raise then I used to. If I get reraised, then I probably have an easy fold. If I get called, often a continuation bet will take the pot on the flop, provided the raise has gotten it heads up.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm right here with ya. Continuation bets with nothing are not for the faint of heart, but they SHOULD be. A good chant to repeat is "I raised pre-flop, therefore I am allowed to represent AA|KK|QQ|AK."

[unfrgvn]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I play tight for the first round or so, until I see how it's going. If pre flop raises are getting respect, then I'm going to open more pots for a raise then I used to. If I get reraised, then I probably have an easy fold. If I get called, often a continuation bet will take the pot on the flop, provided the raise has gotten it heads up.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm right here with ya. Continuation bets with nothing are not for the faint of heart, but they SHOULD be. A good chant to repeat is "I raised pre-flop, therefore I am allowed to represent AA|KK|QQ|AK."

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, the real question is how much to bet as a continuation, provided you've hit nothing. Let's say the blinds are 15/30, I've opened the pot in late position with KQo, the button has called and the blinds folded. I've raised to T75, so there is T195 in the pot. I'm first to act and the flop is A 7 5r. How much do you bet? (and I am going to bet). This the next homework assignment. Assume we have equal stacks of T800 prior to the hand.

[kevstreet]

I think this is a very good thread and I'm looking forward to the answer from Scuba. Over the last couple of months I've noticed a change in the $10-$30s. When I first started there was usually a big difference between the chip leader and short stack during bubble play. But now that gap appears to have narrowed and bubble play has become much more difficult. There's usually around 4 or 5 players with approx t1800.

[A_PLUS]

[ QUOTE ]
A+, assuming you don't play a single hand in levels 1-3, you will be starting level 4 with 655 chips.

I think you'll find that you must be bleeding some chips in the earlier levels with your hand selections.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a possibility. I have been limping from late position with AXs, any PP, and SC through JT when there is a multiway unraised pot. more on why later


[ QUOTE ]
If this is your SnG strategy on Level 4+, here is another place where you are bleeding chips. In general (and especially in levels 1-3), be the aggressor, or fold. The only time it pays to limp is if you've got a monster brewing. If you don't have the type of hand you can be aggressive with, then you know folding is the correct decision.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok here is my problem with this later in the game. Say L4, you have 900TC do you push your playable hands? Say you have AQs on the button and their is one limper. Do you only push? If so, this strategy is basically a SNG form of sklanksy's TPFAP strategy, correct? So, AQs, say you raise and miss the flop can you get away from it if someone bets into you?

Basically I ran into too many situations where I would raise from late position with the best hand (although not a PP), I would get called, by 1-2 players and would miss the flop 2/3 of the time. So I decided to see a few more flops and lower my starting requirements somehwat when I have an intermediate stack. (4-6X the BB+SB). I feel that when your chips allow a few flops, and the table is too loose to call a preflop raise (very important point, but the norm at 20-30$ tables), you have a better chance by seeing 3 flops with AQ, AJ, and KJ than raising a large portion of your chips with AQ. Sure you run into the times when you are dominated, but more often you run into a player who limped with JT vs your AJ.


[ QUOTE ]
I could say a lot about this previous statement, but I will focus on just one aspect. You will benefit by becoming a student of Folding Equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have read "the theorem of blind stealing" My impression of folding equity what the % of times all opponents fold vs. amount in pot. In post post I was referring to the fact that at level 4 (you have 500+TCs), against 4-5 opponents, there are usually 1-2 large stacks, and I have seen very low % of times that everyone folds. especially if a large stack is in the blind. This is not to say that a push is negative chip EV, just that I prefer alternatives to having a 33% or worse chance of being eliminated. Players at low levels get caught up in "chopping heads" and will call an all-in raise, when they would not have called in any other situation.

Also, I understand that your style is a winning LT strategy, I am just trying to improve my game day to day.
I appreciate your thoughts, and odds are you are right.

Let me think about the HW for a few minutes, I'll post in a bit.

*****
I realize now that read a little weak tight. Which is not me. I am only referring to situations where you aren't first in, and have a borderline hand. I dont want to go broke waiting for a hand, so I will see a few flops with borderline hands. I also will push the AQs, and raise in unopened pots with almost anything

[spentrent]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, the real question is how much to bet as a continuation, provided you've hit nothing. Let's say the blinds are 15/30, I've opened the pot in late position with KQo, the button has called and the blinds folded. I've raised to T75, so there is T195 in the pot. I'm first to act and the flop is A 7 5r. How much do you bet? (and I am going to bet). This the next homework assignment. Assume we have equal stacks of T800 prior to the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that's a very interesting question. Simply bet your standard "I'm-ahead" bet.

If your "I'm-ahead" bet differs from your "I'm-pretending-I'm-ahead" bet, you're giving away the keys to the vault.

[unfrgvn]

[quote
I don't think that's a very interesting question. Simply bet your standard "I'm-ahead" bet.

If your "I'm-ahead" bet differs from your "I'm-pretending-I'm-ahead" bet, you're giving away the keys to the vault.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doh! Ok, Mr. Obvious man, you are correct. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif
I was just wondering what your standard "I'm ahead" bet is. I would bet either 100 or 125 in either case. I see a lot of people lead out into a pot like this for T30, which ain't gonna get it.

[spentrent]

It pays to be a master of the obvious. I'm a recent convert from 1xPOT to .75xPOT.

[Scuba Chuck]

I think I've gotten myself into trouble. First off, some of you are asking the right questions. I will not give answers to open ended questions, this discussion is your quest on this site. I will, though, answer direct questions.

Second of all, Spentrent, you've opened this up into more than just pushing standards, but also into calling standards. Note: it's impossible to discuss pushing standards without discussing calling standards as well. (For more discussion, search and study the Gap Concept.)

Two Dogs:
Ok you push your t650 the co and button are getting 1.2 to 1 odds the sb is getting 1.3 and the bb is getting 1.45 so they're not getting good pot odds to call but how do you calculate the % they will call?
Your comments here are half right. This is a part of folding equity. Pot odds. But in regards to the BB's stack and the SB's stack, what else is important (frankly more important)?

Other half of this answer. There is more than just the BB and SB in the hand. Put yourself into any other of the cardplayer's shoes. How good a hand do you need to have to cold call this push? Remember, putting yourself into their shoes means you have no idea what our HERO's hand is. Furthermore, besides the cards, what other factors must our villain consider?

[Scuba Chuck]

Unforgiven, the HH you posted is a great example of where you are bleeding chips. The worst part of this hand is that you won. Now your ego is involved "hey, I can win this, why shouldn't I play them?" Heck, why not limp in for just 30 chips with 78s, or 89s, why does it matter that it's 34s, or you're on the button? It's possible that this style of play will work, but IMHO, this is a leak in your game.

[Scuba Chuck]

A+,

This is a possibility. I have been limping from late position with AXs, any PP, and SC through JT when there is a multiway unraised pot. more on why later

Well I'm definately interested on the more on why later part. IMHO, this is a leak in your game. What is the benefit to playing in multiway pots, unless you're holding a sleeping monster (like pocket pairs)? Frankly, the idea of playing in multiway pots is loath to me. Yuk. I want headsup play. Maybe 3 way preflop, but generally headsup. That's the reason why there's all these "rules" on how much to raise preflop with AK, AA, KK, QQ. To narrow the field down to one player. Let the fish play multiway. Let them battle it out. Be content to wait on the sidelines. It is not your job to knock out the competition. They will knock each other out.

Say L4, you have 900TC do you push your playable hands? Say you have AQs on the button and their is one limper. Do you only push?
YES. YES. YES. Embrace this, make love to this hand and position. It doesn't get much better than this. PUSH. PUSH. PUSH.

I feel that when your chips allow a few flops, and the table is too loose to call a preflop raise (very important point, but the norm at 20-30$ tables), you have a better chance by seeing 3 flops with AQ, AJ, and KJ than raising a large portion of your chips with AQ.
Where did you learn this nonsense? Why do you want to see flops? The only flops I see in this scenario, is when it's before the turn and the river card, after someone has called my push.

This point is worth discussing more. Rather than me talking, does anyone else have ideas here?

[ChipWarrior]

With regard to Scuba's homework assignment, I don't think I would ever push in this situation.

Thought process:
Possible results: Everybody folds and you pick up the blinds. Doesn't really change my situation that much.

If i get called I'm almost definitely a huge dog. Easily dominated and 5 chances behind you to run into a monster.

Too early to panic and I would wait for a better situation.

[unfrgvn]

[ QUOTE ]
Unforgiven, the HH you posted is a great example of where you are bleeding chips. The worst part of this hand is that you won. Now your ego is involved "hey, I can win this, why shouldn't I play them?" Heck, why not limp in for just 30 chips with 78s, or 89s, why does it matter that it's 34s, or you're on the button? It's possible that this style of play will work, but IMHO, this is a leak in your game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I certainly respect your opinion. There were a lot of variables at work, and they all had to be in my favor for me to play the hand.
1. I could close the action with a call. If I was in the SB I fold.
2. A lot of callers, giving me a good price for the call.
3. A hand that is either gonna hit or miss. Makes for easy post flop decisions.

I'm not advocating that people play hands like this. I have been taking some chances like this and I think so far it is a winner. Of course, in the one long poker game I may find that this is not true long term.

[ArturiusX]

I like the 34s call.

Worst case, you lose 30 chips, not the end of the world.

Best case, you can put a maniac all-in and grab his stack; perfect to begin stealing on level 4.

I will sometimes limp with T9s, and ATs and above (raise with AK) in the early levels.

Very small loss when it doesn't hit, potenitially big payout when it does. Straights are well disguised in sngs.

[bismillahno]

[ QUOTE ]


Another thought, I see this continuously, but if you're on the button with 33, and there are 5+ limpers in front of you, then it pays to limp. If there are fewer limpers it doesn't pay. Statistically, you only hit your set 1 in 8 times. That means you need 8 players in the pot for this to be a positive net result. 5 + you on the button, with the BB and SB is a good number. All too often I see even the newer 2+2ers asking me why I didn't limp in with 44 or something. If you're playing the $55s, where you start with 1,000 chips you can gamble with this a little, but with 800 chips, IMO, you're just bleeding.


[/ QUOTE ]

Well I suspect this comment was at least partly inspired from a question I asked you a few days ago, and I'm still unsure. TIme for a little maths I think (new at these calculations).

Lets assume the situation is as you stated, 33 on the button, level 1, in a 10+1 SnG, unraised pot, with one limper in front of you, for simplicity everyone involved has 800 chips.

Assuming you don't get raised out of the pot, 15 will let you see the flop.

~ One in 8.5 times you'll hit your set.

In that situation, lets say 20% of the time you bust, to set over set, a flush etc. It may be slightly higher than that, but you won't go broke every time either, so the EV component of losing with a set is (.2*800)/8.5 = -18.8, for ease of figures, lets call it -20.

When you don't hit on the flop, you're EV still isn't 0, you can win by having no one else improve at all, hitting on the turn or river...

Lets give a conservative fudge of +5 for this EV component.

This means you're at -30 chips, to be made back in the 1 in 8.5 times you hit (in those situations you win).

Or, you need to win (30*8.5/.8) = 320 (rounded) in those situations you get paid off.

You're guaranteed 60 chips already, so on top of that, you need to win 260 from the 3 other players in the pot with you, or roughly bust one of them 1/3 of the time to break even. Of course, there are situations you can pick up another 100 chips or so, but not bust any other players. I don't have exact figures to back this up, but I'd say you'd get paid off at least that often in 10+1's, (I've played about 500), with people taking their TQo to the fences on a T 5 3 flop.

Getting raised off the pot is a problem, but you'll see the flop for 15 more often than not here, and in many situations, being raised here (assuming its small enough to keep you in) dramatically increases your implied odds, as they're much less keen on letting go of their hands.

Anyway, I think you have a good point about bleeding chips with pairs early, but with position and low blinds, I think even one limper is enough to make it a +EV play, and I certainly don't think you need 5. The numbers do get steadily better as the number in the pot increases though. That changes a lot as the players get better, and your chances of getting paid off get worse though.

If my logic (or maths) sucks, please flame away...

[Scuba Chuck]

I think your point is clear. First point is you know the risks/downfall of limping from early position. Next is you clearly have defined this as a cheap way to see the pot, focusing on level 1. Frankly on level 1, I believe you can limp with a large array of hands without causing much serious damage to your chipstack.

This needs to be taken with a grain of salt though. No matter how big the bet on the flop, it is an autofold if you missed your set. My strategy is only to limp in with baby pairs and lower middle pairs only when I have extra chips.

This is the reason why. My middle play skills (level 4+) are solid, IMHO, and why would I want to risk any chips that will lose me folding equity. 550-650 chips on level 4 is a workable stack. If you know how to work it. Anything below 500 chips you're waiting for a premium hand because you will get called by anyone.

[A_PLUS]

[ QUOTE ]
A+,

What is the benefit to playing in multiway pots, unless you're holding a sleeping monster (like pocket pairs)?

[/ QUOTE ]


We will have to agree to disagree here. Hands like JTs, Kjs, KQs. I want cheap and multiway (and me acting last).

rational: a raise brings only good callers, which may dominate me, and with shallow money may pot commit me. What I want is 5-6 people (and their money) in the pot. This is early on, with blinds at 30 or lower. Calling a 30 bet with KQ from the button, when you stand to win 150-200 chips and are likely a favorite is a good proposition. Pot odds can be overdone with shallow money. But you have to see the rational of paying 30TC with a 25% of winning 150 vs. raising 150 chips to win 250 @ 65%.

I got carried away with the talk about "seeing the flop" later on. It sounded good, but I checked my hand histories and I was raising or folding 90% of the time[at level 4 and beyond]. Only seeing the flop when 2+ callers and I had a SC higher than JT.

In games where players call raises too often, I will NEVER limp with a high PP. I couldnt disagree more. I may do this on occasion at a tough agressive game, where players understand the gap concept and my UG raise will get no action, but thats it. I dont want 5 people seeing a flop and not knowing wether someone caught 2 pair. I want them heads up for a lot of chips.


So my question to you.

How would your strategy change if you lifted the Party SNG structure to a live game that took 4 hours. Your strategy is most probably optimal (or close) for multitabling. But what if you only played one game a night? Would you change anything? I have been trying to think of my game in more "improve my poker" not just "improve my SNG ROI"

Thoughts?

By the way, the PP and AX advice was right on. I'll save them for Ultimate bet and their deep money. Thanks.

[Scuba Chuck]

I knew you were going to disagree with me. And before your post, I originally intended to just say "C'est La Vie."

But you brought up a series of hands that give you an edge, and there are books out there written by poker professionals to support your decision.

[ QUOTE ]
We will have to agree to disagree here. Hands like JTs, Kjs, KQs. I want cheap and multiway (and me acting last).

[/ QUOTE ]

I think if you are playing a ring game, or at a site like poker stars where you have a significantly larger chip stack, it is correct play to limp with this hands, and perhaps even raise.

At Party Poker, this is absolutely untrue. Chipstacks are not deep enough, 800 chips that is, to risk folding equity in later rounds. IMHO, folding these hands, and learning to implement folding equity in level 4 and 5 will give you a far more commanding chip lead, and higher ROI over time.

In response to:
[ QUOTE ]
How would your strategy change if you lifted the Party SNG structure to a live game that took 4 hours

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an impossibility. The Party Poker blind structure is built for swift games. You cannot lift this structure into a live game that will last 4 hours.

A+, I see where you're stuck. I hope you're able to differentiate a Party Poker, super low stack, quickly raising blind structure, as a different poker animal. A lot of hands that you would normally play because they do provide edges is a leak in this structure.

Now as is true in most classrooms, we have gotten off the subject. Is anyone going to continue the homework assignment?

[Scuba Chuck]

I can only help those that want to be helped. If you think that my advice about limping or capping mini raises is not leaking chips then that's your preragative.

If you think this game is about you can put a maniac all-in and grab his stack, then that's your choice.

But before you go on listening to all the posts that disagree with me, ask your self the following questions:

Do you want to PLAY poker? Or,
Do you want to be a winning poker player?

It's that simple guys.

[bismillahno]

Ok, I thnk we're closer to the same page here than I thought. The specific comment in your original post seemed to suggest you needed absolutely perfect conditions for small pairs which I just wanted to show wasn't absolultely necessary.

No arguments with anything else you've said, and you've definitely shown me I've been playing them a little beyond what I need to.

cheers

[Cheeseweasel]

Assume that you turn up your A7s and raise all-in.

BR = t650
Blinds = t100/t50
Hand = A7s
#_ahead = 5
#_limpers = 0

You will be called only by hands that are equal to or better than yours, 147 out of 1225 starting hands = .120 = %_call

Your probability of winning given that you are called is = .357 = P|call

The probability that you will be called by one or more opponents is 1-((1-%_call)**(#_ahead)) = 1-((1-.120)**5) = .472 = P|opponents

Fold_equity = (1-P|opponents)*blinds = (1-.472)*t150 = t79

All-in_equity = (P|opponents*P|call*(blinds+BR))-((P|opponents*(1-P|call)*BR) = (.472*.357*(t650+t150))-(.472*(1-.357)*t650) = -t62

Total_equity = fold_equity + all-in_equity = t79-t62 = t17

EV = total_equity/BR = t17/t650 = 2.6%

I'll let you draw your own conclusions.

[A_PLUS]

Scuba,

Thanks for the advice. Deep down I know you are mostly right.
I am just at the "turning point" of my poker quest. I began playing too tight, opened up, had much more success, then overdid it. I am just working on finding my happy medium.

anyway, thanks

[Scuba Chuck]

For those of you still interested in working on this...

[ QUOTE ]
I think I've gotten myself into trouble. First off, some of you are asking the right questions. I will not give answers to open ended questions, this discussion is your quest on this site. I will, though, answer direct questions.

Second of all, Spentrent, you've opened this up into more than just pushing standards, but also into calling standards. Note: it's impossible to discuss pushing standards without discussing calling standards as well. (For more discussion, search and study the Gap Concept.)

Two Dogs:
Ok you push your t650 the co and button are getting 1.2 to 1 odds the sb is getting 1.3 and the bb is getting 1.45 so they're not getting good pot odds to call but how do you calculate the % they will call?
Your comments here are half right. This is a part of folding equity. Pot odds. But in regards to the BB's stack and the SB's stack, what else is important (frankly more important)?

Other half of this answer. There is more than just the BB and SB in the hand. Put yourself into any other of the cardplayer's shoes. How good a hand do you need to have to cold call this push? Remember, putting yourself into their shoes means you have no idea what our HERO's hand is. Furthermore, besides the cards, what other factors must our villain consider?

[/ QUOTE ]

AND

[ QUOTE ]
I feel that when your chips allow a few flops, and the table is too loose to call a preflop raise (very important point, but the norm at 20-30$ tables), you have a better chance by seeing 3 flops with AQ, AJ, and KJ than raising a large portion of your chips with AQ.
Where did you learn this nonsense? Why do you want to see flops? The only flops I see in this scenario, is when it's before the turn and the river card, after someone has called my push.

This point is worth discussing more. Rather than me talking, does anyone else have ideas here?

[/ QUOTE ]

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
With regard to Scuba's homework assignment, I don't think I would ever push in this situation.

Thought process:
Possible results: Everybody folds and you pick up the blinds. Doesn't really change my situation that much.

If i get called I'm almost definitely a huge dog. Easily dominated and 5 chances behind you to run into a monster.

Too early to panic and I would wait for a better situation.


[/ QUOTE ]

ChipWarrior your conclusion to fold and not panic is correct. I caution you on your statement about stealing the blinds doesn't really help your situation that much. The most effective way to build your stack is by not seeing any showdowns. By reading a couple of your other posts, I think you already get this though. Am I wrong?

[johnny005]

Just came in to read this thread, I agree with scuba completly, I've pretty much combed through most of this forum, read a few post and the thing that I feel has halped my game the most is this simple article. http://teamfu.freeshell.org/tournament/theorem_blind_stealing.html
At first I couldnt understand it, it confused me then one day it clicked... I dont have to PLAY poker... I just have to steal there chips and slide into the money... and how do I make it more likly that it will work?? FOLD!!! alot /images/graemlins/crazy.gif
These guys siting there that havent seen you play a pot(maybe 1 or 2 but you show them pocket Q's-A's or A-K)
Are going to fold alot, until they catch on. Once I learned this simple theory My ITM increased. Thanks MJ

[A_PLUS]

[ QUOTE ]
I feel that when your chips allow a few flops, and the table is too loose to call a preflop raise (very important point, but the norm at 20-30$ tables), you have a better chance by seeing 3 flops with AQ, AJ, and KJ than raising a large portion of your chips with AQ.
Where did you learn this nonsense? Why do you want to see flops? The only flops I see in this scenario, is when it's before the turn and the river card, after someone has called my push.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I should clarify my statement. I try to pump so many ideas out I dont articulate.


There are many situations where, after a few rounds everyone has fairly even stacks. Now, as is the case with many players. They view pot odds in a non TC way, and they dont understand the gap concept. So you may be in late position with 1200TC. Their is two players in the pot, and you are holding a 'borderline hand" AJo ATs KQs, etc.

Now, IMHO, I have found that raising is a waste. All you usually do is add more money to the pot. With a raise, often the flop will miss, and the caller will throw out a "feeler" bet. In this case, you dont want to be acting 2nd. any further calls will commit you to the pot, and there is always the chance he is trapping you with a set or OP.

Now if you just call, there is less money to fight for and the opening betters have less incentive to steal. If they do throw out a bet, you have an easier time giving the hand up.

So it is a bit of diversification in my book. If you have the choice between a 30% chance (although probably better) at a 450 pot betting 100. On the other hand a 60% chance at a 750 pot. regardless of TC EV, I like the lower variance with the 1st move.

What I am promoting here isn't not raising premium hands. It is seeiing a flop rather than folding middle of the road hands. [in the right scenario]It is table dependent, put I am assuming that you are tighter than the table as a whole. So your middle hands are their good hands. I will try to put together a more analytical arguement tomorrow when I am not 3 tabling.

Later

[johnny005]

....Scuba I think I love you /images/graemlins/blush.gif
[ QUOTE ]
Do you want to PLAY poker? Or,
Do you want to be a winning poker player?

[/ QUOTE ]
Again this is what it all boils down to guys, it may be fun to get in there and play some poker with those A-x's, and k-j,k-q, but if you want to win at your highest possible rate..... just listen to scube he knows all.

[microbet]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm fine with this. Each person has their own strategy. Level 1, I'm on board with this for sure. Level 3, I'm folding. My experience with baby pairs over many SnGs is that it bleeds more than it adds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can someone with a huge pokertracker db (maybe you) address this? I tend to go for a while and around the time I'm about ready to give up on limping small and medium PP's early I double up (or better) with them.

I tend to limp when there is or are likely to be a lot more than just a few limpers with any PP in the first level and then tighten it up a bit in levels 2 and 3, but it's a borderline decision and is affected by the table composition.

[Scuba Chuck]

What I am promoting here isn't not raising premium hands. It is seeiing a flop rather than folding middle of the road hands.

Again, A+, I'm sorry, your poker school of thought has many flaws if you intend to be a winning player at Party Poker Sit N Gos. If you want to continue playing the way you play, there are better games for you, but this is not the right one. IMHO, you will at best be a single digit ROI player, unless you change.

I sense you have a very loose grasp of Sit n Go strategy, mixed in with a bunch of Sxxx. If you intend to stick around SNGs (which maybe isn't a good idea) ask yourself, and then ask others the following questions, when talking about Level 4+.

Why do you not want to see a flop if your chips are in play?
Why do you always fold to any other aggression unless you have JJ+, or AK?
Why should I be happy that others do not understand the Gap Concept?
If I am at a loose table, with a few who don't understand the Gap Concept, how does that change my strategy?

[Scuba Chuck]

....Scuba I think I love you

Wooohooo, my first fan.

[A_PLUS]

I think you are missing the underlying theme of my posts.

I am not talking about max EV SNG strategy over 500 games. Where I was trying to go with the live game analogy, is this:

forget PT and 4 tabling. If you were playing a 1000$ single table tourney. You knew there were no more, would you play the same uber-tight style?

or

you only enjoyed playing 1 table at a time. You weren't trying to max EV over 4-8 tables. If you could actively pay attention to the players, would you play the same way?

quite possible, just something I am thinking about

[Scuba Chuck]

yes I play the same way. What you don't know yet, is that Optimum strategy for winning Sit N Gos has very little to do with the early levels. So any thing that will help you fill leaks in the early levels, to maintain or maximize folding equity in middle and bubble play is the correct strategy.

In fact, this is precisely the reason Lorinda recommended playing low limit SnGs with something covering up your hands so that you can't see your cards. IMO, with a teacher, this would be a great way to learn.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
....Scuba I think I love you

Wooohooo, my first fan.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah Scuba, you f!ckin pzwn this thread.

Yugoslav

[two_dogs]

[ QUOTE ]
Your comments here are half right. This is a part of folding equity. Pot odds. But in regards to the BB's stack and the SB's stack, what else is important (frankly more important)?


[/ QUOTE ]
I understand the stack sizes of the bllinds are importanr but you did not specify this.

[ QUOTE ]
Other half of this answer. There is more than just the BB and SB in the hand. Put yourself into any other of the cardplayer's shoes. How good a hand do you need to have to cold call this push? Remember, putting yourself into their shoes means you have no idea what our HERO's hand is. Furthermore, besides the cards, what other factors must our villain consider?



[/ QUOTE ]
I think this opens up another can of worms that perhaps most haven't thought about but first I'll say from my experience you'll be called by AA-TT AK,AQ and possibly AJ and any PP by a terrible villain(it happens) though I wouldn't worry about the latter too much.
Now for the other can of worms. i try to keep track of what my opponents push with and what the circumstances are but I don't keep track of who I push against and what I push with and doubt if anyone else does so what do you do when your oponent knows you'll push with less than premium or he knows you are a 2+2'er?
Just a little food for thought.

[rickr]

Scuba let me ask you something. I rarely limp early with pockets. I figure 7 times I'm going to miss. Say 4 at 20 and 3 at 30. I've given up 160 chips that have considerably more power later, as you've said. So I agree with you whole heartedly about that. But, I will call a raise with them. My thoughts on this are you have an aggressor. Now you have more implied odds. Does this make since. Last night in a $20 S&amp;G, level 4, LP. UTG raise to T150, MP calls. I have pocket 7's and call. Flop is 755. UTG goes all-in, MP goes all-in, I call. UTG has KK, MP QQ, no help and I triple up. Am I correct in my thinking about the implied odds, or am I leaking?

Thanks,
Rick

[Scuba Chuck]

rickr,
[ QUOTE ]
or am I leaking?

[/ QUOTE ]

Give me the answer to your own question. Feel free to answer both to the affirmative and the negative. Also, is your question a results oriented question?

[spentrent]

I've been thinking about my early game pocket pair play as well. I've started playing JJ more aggressively IF I can open in LP, say on the button or the CO. Otherwise, I consider 22-JJ to be equivalent, only worth playing for set value.

In order to avoid leaks, I'd been playing only 88 or higher. But lately I'm considering arbitrarily deciding on a set of pocket pairs to play before the game starts, since 22, played for set value, is no different from 88. For instance, in order to avoid becoming predictable, I could decide to play 22, 66, 77 instead of 88, 99, TT.

The real problem, as I peer into the future, is that this is really not much of a deviation from solid 10,20,30 play. What I worry about is strong opponents who can put me on a small pocket pair if I limp, or AA|KK|QQ|AK if I raise. I realize that opponents like this occur less frequently at the lower buy-ins, but it's something to consider as one moves up the ladder.

In fact, if I notice someone who is playing as tight as I am in the early game, I can exploit my hunch that his pre-flop limp means small pocket pair, rather than two broadway cards. Min-raise to isolate pre-flop, and stab if a J or better flops. By no means is this a common situation, but it's definitely something to add to the toolbox.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
Over the last couple of months I've noticed a change in the $10-$30s.

[/ QUOTE ]

I used to say and think things like the above statement. Eastbay always said that this statement has been said over and over since he's been here. In my research of the archives, I've seen comments like this before as well.

I used to play golf. When I first started, the game was easy. I just focused on hitting the ball straight and long. I never really cared about my putting, or short game, as hitting it straight and long was a priority. The better I got at golf, the more difficult the game became. I began to overthink certain shots, my emotions ruled my putting, blah, blah, blah.

I think as you get better at poker, the games begin to look more challenging.

Kev, I don't think the games have changed, I think you have changed.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
I've been thinking about my early game ...

[/ QUOTE ]

Spentrent, IMO, you are thinking correctly at this stage in your poker progression. Not just thinking about leaks, and your Preflop strategy, but you're now thinking about what the other guy is thinking about you. When I'm at a table with 7 limpers I often think about what they have. I'm always guessing they have small pairs, or suited connectors, or AJ. If we were at the WSOP main event, I think these assumptions would be correct. But the fact remains, we play at party poker. People limp with T4s, because they're "sooooted." People limp with Axo, because A is the most powerful card of all time.

Next, why do you worry that your opponents will see a large PF raise to mean that you hold QQ+, or AK? I want them to put me on those hands. I think this straightforward strategy is very effective in the $11-$55 tables. I would suspect some deviation from this occurs at the $109 and certainly at higher tables.

For the moment, focus on becoming an expert at your station in poker. If you are an $11 table player, became an $11 poker God. I think at the $11 table, you should be able to achieve 40% ITM and 40% ROI. If you are not here, then this is your poker strife. If your bankroll is bigger than what is needed for the $11 tables, especially because you earned, then become a poker expert at the $22s. Don't get ahead of yourself. Live for today. Don't outwit yourself. Strive for excellence. Don't play cards. Strive to be a highly winning poker player.

[A_PLUS]

This statement has nothing to do with the validity of the style you are advocating. Just a question.

Could I, with relative ease, program a computer to play SNGs with this style. Or give someone with little poker knowledge a 3 hour lesson and an index card and they could play this style.

End game play, when you are either going all-in or folding, is relatively straight forward to program. The only human input is the range of hands you expect to get called with. Given that this is a guess. There could be some basic decision rules and predefined ranges.

If you are right, and I am correct in my assesment, lets call mark Cuban and get in his gambling hedge fund!! You can be the brains, I will be the good looks and charisma.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
Could I, with relative ease, program a computer to play SNGs with this style

[/ QUOTE ]

You probably could program a BOT to do this, and be relatively effective on lower level SnGs, like the $33s where I play. No, you could not do it with relative ease.

But what fun would that be?

[A_PLUS]

smells like a challenge!!!

I cant wait to lose to my own bot!

[kevstreet]

[ QUOTE ]

Kev, I don't think the games have changed, I think you have changed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Scuba, you can add me to the list of 2+2ers that read your posts intently.