NL hand - slowplay the nut flush?

[WorldBeater]

The game is NL holdem with blinds of 5 and 10. Each player in the hand has about 1k in chips. You call in MP with Ad8d. There are 3 more limpers and the blinds check.
The flop is 6d 7d Jd. A solid player leads for a pot sized bet from the SB. The BB folds. The action is on you and the 3 players behind you don't play well.
Do you call or raise?

Is this a good situation for a slowplay?
Reasons why it is or is not?

Thanks

[sk8rdude12000]

i feel it is a great spot for a slowplay. because they if someone rasies he is probably just trying to defend a made but vulnerable hand and u can suck his money into the pot. and everyone else is probably drawing dead to a second best flush and if they hold a card to make a straightt flush i think they wouldnt stay in because they really would only have 2 outs and i think u wouldnt really mind someone staying in with 2 outs. just build the pot by keeping the most ppl in. if u think they will call your raise raise it up or just call and hope one of them might raise



by the way that isnt the nuts at this point /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[binions]

[ QUOTE ]
The game is NL holdem with blinds of 5 and 10. Each player in the hand has about 1k in chips. You call in MP with Ad8d. There are 3 more limpers and the blinds check.
The flop is 6d 7d Jd. A solid player leads for a pot sized bet from the SB. The BB folds. The action is on you and the 3 players behind you don't play well.
Do you call or raise?

Is this a good situation for a slowplay?
Reasons why it is or is not?

Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

The only thing you fear is a set, which has a 35% chance to outdraw you with 2 to play.

One way to play it is a smooth call the flop bet, and move all in on the turn when the board does not pair. If the board pairs, proceed cautiously.

If your flush was not the nuts, I would be more inclined to raise the flop.

[binions]

[ QUOTE ]

by the way that isnt the nuts at this point /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif is "the nuts at this point", on a flop of J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

There are 3 possible flush hands that could outdraw you later:

5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[The Bloke]

I had an almost identical situation last night, when I chose to slow-play and it worked out very well.

Here's the history - I've posted this partly because it gives an example where slowplaying the nut flush worked well (my feeling is that the two-pair guy might have folded to early aggression), but mostly because this is the largest single pot I've won so far ($500) and I want to post it /images/graemlins/smile.gif So, apologies for the low content.

If anyone has any comments, much appreciated - in hindsight perhaps I could have been more careful of the straight-flush possibility, but I figured the chances were so small that I didn't need to pay much attention to that - I'm going to win in this situation much more often than I'll lose.

This is £0.50/£1 ($1/$2) NL, £100 max buyin. Sorry for not converting it, the hand convertor doesn't work on this format.

Seat 5: TheBloke (£259.75 in chips)
Seat 6: Joh240144 (£29 in chips)
Seat 8: patman (£110.50 in chips)
TheBloke: posts small blind £0.50
Joh240144: posts big blind £1
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to TheBloke [As Qs]
patman: calls £1
TheBloke: raises to £3
Joh240144: calls £2
patman: calls £2
----- FLOP ----- [6s 2s 4s]
TheBloke: checks
Joh240144: bets £3
patman: calls £3
TheBloke: calls £3
----- TURN ----- [6s 2s 4s][5d]
TheBloke: checks
Joh240144: bets £23 and is all-in
patman: calls £23
TheBloke: raises to £50
patman: calls £27
----- RIVER ----- [6s 2s 4s 5d][8s]
TheBloke: bets £55
patman: is all-in £54.50
Returned uncalled bets £0.50 to TheBloke
----- SHOW DOWN -----
TheBloke: shows [As Qs] (A Flush, Ace high)
Joh240144: shows [9s 8h] (A Flush, Nine high)
patman: shows [6c 5c] (Two Pairs, Sixes and Fives, Eight high)
TheBloke collected £163 from Side pot #1
TheBloke collected £84 from Main pot
----- SUMMARY -----
Total pot £250 Main pot £84 Side pot #1 £163 | Rake £3
Board [6s 2s 4s 5d 8s]

[jtr]

Nice hand.

But jeez:

[ QUOTE ]
Rake £3

[/ QUOTE ]

... that is a bit scary.

[Paul2432]

Just to play devil's advocate, I'll point out some reasons to raise the flop.

1) A diamond on the turn could kill your action. If one of your opponents is slowplaying small flush a diamond or pairing card on the turn could cause you to make much less money.

2) Many opponents will read a flop raise as a bare Ad and not wanting to give a free card will play aggressively. On the other hand waiting until the turn to raise is a much stronger move and could allow your opponents to get away cheaply.

Just things to think about.

Paul

[The Bloke]

Thanks for the hand comment!

Re rake - yeah I know - Crypto are raking (hoho) it in on this one.

However it suits me at the moment playing in my own currency - I will branch out at sometime, but at the moment I'm beating the game for a reasonable amount (only 2k hands so far), and would like to get up to 10-15k hands before I try something else. That way I can say I have a moderately relevant sample at that game before testing another.

Plus I think the high rake keeps some of the sharks out, which helps /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Caruso329]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

by the way that isnt the nuts at this point /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif is "the nuts at this point", on a flop of J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

There are 3 possible flush hands that could outdraw you later:

5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

As well as:

K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 10 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
10 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

All of these could runner-runner a straight flush from 9 to K.

[djoyce003]

How is an ace high flush on an unpaired board not the nuts at this point? No straight flushes are currently possible, especially since he holds the 8 that kills the openendedness.

[Shoe]

Also, the board could pair to make a full house possible

[sk8rdude12000]

oh man my fault....i was thinkiong about a different post where the board was paired and 4 of a kind was the actually nuts because the one guy had a pocket pair that made trips plus the board pair..good look though

[Pepsquad]

[ QUOTE ]
Just to play devil's advocate, I'll point out some reasons to raise the flop.

1) A diamond on the turn could kill your action. If one of your opponents is slowplaying small flush a diamond or pairing card on the turn could cause you to make much less money.

2) Many opponents will read a flop raise as a bare Ad and not wanting to give a free card will play aggressively. On the other hand waiting until the turn to raise is a much stronger move and could allow your opponents to get away cheaply.

Just things to think about.

Paul

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a very good observation. A 4th diamond on the turn will shut down EVERYTHING other than the K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif or Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. In my experience, MOST opponents at the lower limits especially, will be very slow to give credit for the flopped flush. You don't have to get carried away, but a 1/2 pot sized bet on the flop will probably just be perceived as the lone A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif and it helps manipulate pots odds for later in the hand.

Pep.

[TheAmp]

[ QUOTE ]
Just to play devil's advocate, I'll point out some reasons to raise the flop.

1) A diamond on the turn could kill your action. If one of your opponents is slowplaying small flush a diamond or pairing card on the turn could cause you to make much less money.

2) Many opponents will read a flop raise as a bare Ad and not wanting to give a free card will play aggressively. On the other hand waiting until the turn to raise is a much stronger move and could allow your opponents to get away cheaply.

Just things to think about.

Paul

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting thoughts.
On the other hand, a /images/graemlins/diamond.gif on the turn is not likely (5 are allready out). a raise will drive away those dead draws that are very likely. you want these players to call "incorrectly" (they would fold if they knew what you had). if you raise they will play "correctly" and fold.
if you are up against a set you will get your action no matter what you do, and you are still a huge favorite.
If the blind would check I would suggest a 3/4 pot bet to start the fire and to give dead draws a price they might pay.
just things to think about...
S.J

[ThePinkBunny]

There's not really enough info to answer. How will your raise or call be perceived by the other players? Are one of the players behind you aggressive enough to raise if you just call with a lesser hand? If a pair hits the board, will you be able to get away if someone has a full house?

If you can't answer these questions well, then you should probably do the safe play and just go allin.

[Lawrence Ng]

[ QUOTE ]
Is this a good situation for a slowplay?
Reasons why it is or is not?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, and if you have to ask why you seriously are not ready to play 5/10 NL.

1. You let a set in cheap.
2. Another diamond will kill your action.
3. Any diamond that allows for a straight flush possibility will either kill your action or kill you!
4. If you have flush over flush right now, you're more likely to get paid more.
5. In NL you want to build monster pots with monster hands. Nut flushes count as monster hands. Build the damn pot. You do not want to win a small pot - you want to win a big pot.

These are pretty much all basics in NL play.

Lawrence