First hand post, don't spare me

[Nilbud]

I've been playing seriously about two months, about 7000 hands. I'm most of the way through SSH, but it's a lot to take in and apply correctly in a short amount of time. Any help with situations like this (mid pair made hand, nasty flop) would be appreciated.

Limit Hold'em (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls, CO calls, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, BB calls, MP calls, CO calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (10 SB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, MP folds, CO folds, Hero....

[JordanIB]

Folds, watches the action and the hands, and waits patiently for the dealer to give him 2 more cards on the next hand.

[ QUOTE ]
I've been playing seriously about two months, about 7000 hands. I'm most of the way through SSH, but it's a lot to take in and apply correctly in a short amount of time. Any help with situations like this (mid pair made hand, nasty flop) would be appreciated.

Limit Hold'em (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls, CO calls, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, BB calls, MP calls, CO calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (10 SB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, MP folds, CO folds, Hero....

[/ QUOTE ]

[Nilbud]

Yeah, that's what I thought. But what if the flop comes A/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/club.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif? Does that change to a call, or do I fold to any flop with two overcards?

[DMBFan23]

hero folds. a raise from the blinds usually means a strong hand, and that flop is more likely to hit him than if he were, let's say, a button raiser. even if he only has high cards he has 9 outs twice against you, and there's the BB to worry about as well, who while I don't figure him for an ace, I suspect may have a ten. (of course an ace is possible too) even if BB only has high cards, your hand is likely to not be good by showdown if in fact you are best now. combine that with the high likelihood that you are behind and this is a pretty easy fold for me.

[jaxUp]

Depending on the table, I would definitely consider raising this with just a few limpers. I am folding this flop without hesitation. (It's always good to post your reads as well)

EDIT: I mean raising pre flop, not on flop!!!

[jaxUp]

two overs to a mid pocket pair is bad news. I would fold to and AT3 flop as well, unless it was a huge pot and I had odds to draw. The pot isn't nearly big enough here

[Nilbud]

If I had any reads, I don't remember them at this stage. But I certainly remember thinking about raising PF. I didn't do it thought, because I'm trying to play PF completely by the numbers, for the time being. Once I have that down completely, I'll look at situations where I can play differently, depending on the circumstances.

I knew I should have folded, but I was temporarily blinded by the flush potential and hit call.

[vulturesrow]

What flush potential?

[Nilbud]

sorry, that should have read full house, not flush.

[JordanIB]

[ QUOTE ]
What flush potential?

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe he was referring to the "flush full house": 3 of a suit over 2 of a suit. With 22 outs (granted not all may be clean), the pot is clearly large enough for a flop call.

[Octopus]

What full house potential? Aces full is a losing hand for you here (unless you are already ahead). Two outs (or none) is all you have.

[Nilbud]

Geez, I've never heard of that hand. No wonder I've been losing money hand over fist!! /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Nilbud]

Yes, you are right of course. Unfortunately, in the seven seconds I had to decide, I made the rather stupid assumption that it wasn't likely anyone had an ace.

[VTDuffman]

I've only seen one comment on his PF play here. But, with 2 limpers, isn't 88 on the button a raise?

[davelin]

Depends. I definitely raise 99+ here. I think limping with 88 here is okay.

Edit - I also didn't noticed this was 6-way.

[GrunchCan]

PF is borderline between limp and raise. With just 1 limper before me, I'll raise in position. With 3 limpers before me, I'll limp along in position. I could go either way in this case, but I tend to limp.

Fold the flop. You are either drawing dead or to 2 outs.

If the board had come AA5 or 77T, that would be a totally different situation. As it is, you have very little going for you here except your position.

Edit: Just noticed hand was 6-handed. This changes things, but I'm no expert at HUSH play. This hand belongs in the HUSH forum.

[SeeWillie]

I believe SSH has 99 raising on the button, 88 calling. Unless I have solid reads and good position on the table, I stick with Ed's advice to the letter, and I think Nilbud is right to "toe the line" at this stage.

[chris_a]

Preflop: consider raising here depending upon the limping standards of the two players to your right who limped. With no reads, a limp definitely isn't bad.

Flop: Ok, in an idealized world, either you are behind here, or ahead. If you are ahead, you should be raising to protect your hand. If you are behind you should muck since you only have two outs and not nearly enough pot odds. Calling is out of the question unless....

...you are calling because you may have the best hand and you aren't sure. In that case, you'll probably have to call all the way down to the river to see a showdown. You'll be paying 5 SB for a chance to win 14 to 18 SB (could be worse too if there's raising). So will you win this 25% of the time? I don't think so. It might be close with one better, but after the other guy calls, I think making an overcall here is terrible personally.

Even if the PF-raiser didn't hit at all, the flop caller may have hit the T or may be waiting to raise the turn with an A. You may already be drawing to two outs. I prefer to wait until a more clear cut position to push my edges.

[DMBFan23]

"Flop: Ok, in an idealized world, either you are behind here, or ahead. If you are ahead, you should be raising to protect your hand. "

protecting from who?

[chris_a]

If you are up against KQo and J9o then you are ahead, right? And you don't want your hand to be outdrawn by overcards to your 8's right?

Note, I didn't say he was ahead. Just saying that if he is ahead, he should protect his hand.

Or are you asking who's going to fold? Maybe nobody, but if you are ahead, you're giving them a chance to fold or make them pay the price if they want to stay. This is partly value, partly protection.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are up against KQo and J9o then you are ahead, right? And you don't want your hand to be outdrawn by overcards to your 8's right?

Note, I didn't say he was ahead. Just saying that if he is ahead, he should protect his hand.

Or are you asking who's going to fold? Maybe nobody, but if you are ahead, you're giving them a chance to fold or make them pay the price if they want to stay. This is partly value, partly protection.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no protection unless there's a 3-bet (and then you're toast) because the players in between are trapped. A raise usually protects when it offers improper odds to anyone considering a call. If these players had the odds the first time around, they certain do to your raise.

A raise here only is for value (and maybe a free card).

[chris_a]

Wait, you're telling me that if both players missed this flop that there's absolutely no chance that either player is going to fold when you raise this flop? If they don't have an Ace, they are shaking in their boots that you do.

The chances might be as low at 10-15%, but that's still protection. You're right that it may be more value than protection, but it's still protection.

[DMBFan23]

if you get someone to incorrectly fold when they could profitably call, I suppose you could liken that to protection in that it increases your chance to win the pot. I usually liken it to payday baby. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

when I usually hear protection, I think "betting or raising to force a hand to either fold or call unprofitably". not really possible here, since if they had odds to call the first bet, they'll have odds to call the second bet.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
Wait, you're telling me that if both players missed this flop that there's absolutely no chance that either player is going to fold when you raise this flop? If they don't have an Ace, they are shaking in their boots that you do.

The chances might be as low at 10-15%, but that's still protection. You're right that it may be more value than protection, but it's still protection.

[/ QUOTE ]

I put the chance at about 1%

[chris_a]

Wow, you can estimate them that accurately? Amazing!!!

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, you can estimate them that accurately? Amazing!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually have it to several decimal points but practically it's the same /images/graemlins/tongue.gif