JJ in Party 109 SNG

[pdubz]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t1085)
BB (t1000)
UTG (t985)
UTG+1 (t945)
UTG+2 (t960)
MP1 (t890)
MP2 (t1000)
Hero (t975)
CO (t1020)
Button (t1140)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls t15, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls t15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t75</font>, SB calls t65, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+2 calls t60, Hero calls t60.

Flop: (t312.50) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets t200</font>, SB folds, UTG+2 folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t512.50

What is everyone else's general line here? I can't make any raise without becoming commited, am not sure I am even ahead, can't really call, raising gets me called only by better hands ... is fold the only option against an unknown?

[ChrisV]

I think this is right. The other option is to call on the flop. That will look pretty scary to Villain, although he may conclude you are on a draw and go ahead and bet allin on the turn, with AK or whatever.

Check call is a line I like sometimes, but here you have to call a pretty large bet and I'm not sure it will slow Villain down on the turn if you're winning.

[Hawkeye27]

I've been treating JJ like any small pair. Limping and folding to any raise over 3 bb's. I just have trouble playing them post flop, so I just let em go without a second thought on the first two rounds.

[Michael C.]

Funny what a difference JJ is compared to QQ here. I think JJ is marginal based on your chances of getting called down with worse vs. the chances of losing your whole stack vs. the chance of getting a fold. So in the first two rounds, it just isn't worth it unless you know the other player plays a lot of lower pairs like this (which some 109's do, and will even go all in with on your raise). But if I had QQ, I'd call without a doubt because then he could be betting with a lot of pocket pairs lower than yours, so I think you can beat a lot of calls and it's plus EV.

[bigredlemon]

calling 200 will leave you with t700... still playable.
If he's betting AK, he'll likely slowdown the turn. If he's betting QQ-AA, he'll likely keep betting. Thoughts?

[SuitedSixes]

I tend to avoid tough decisions which is why I don't call the pre-flop raise with JJ.

[TheAmp]

IMO, its a huge mistake not to bet the flop. how can you check with no overcards, a flush draw, and possible straight draw? if thats how you play JJ on those "good" flops you might as well fold JJ preflop. now the button might be betting a flush draw, top pair, PP lower than JJ or just trying to pick up the pot with crap, after everybody checked.
if you would bet and button would reraise that would be a different story. I think folding would be best for all the reasoned mentioned.
by the way, I dont think button would cold call pre flop with pocket pair higher than JJ - he would want to limit the field and get value for his hand.
checking here cost you the pot - most likely you folded the best hand.

[Pepsquad]

If your plan to to check/fold your overpair on the flop the whole time, then you should have never called the initial raise.

You could have done one of two things and been much more comfortable about your fold:

1) Limp re-raise pre-flop and fold to the re-re.

2) Make a 3/4 pot bet on the flop and fold to the raise.

[TheAmp]

I didnt notice the button was the raiser. still if you called his raise pre flop you must bet the flop.

[el Jefe]

i'm a $22 player so maybe these play differently but lately i've been playing JJ more like it's the fourth best starting hand in holdem and not like a small pair. I'm raising everytime preflop to isolate the limper and clear out the weak Aces and Kings. With a few limpers in ahead of me I'll usually just call.

Given the way you played it you must bet out on the flop and be ready to fold to the re-raise. I make a 1/2 pot bet with no flush draws and a 3/4 to pot-sized bet with two of a suit. The button's play is also consistent with a steal attempt against limpers preflop and when checked to on a semi-ragged board, or even AK. Depending on what villians earlier play has been like I'm often willing to get all my chips in with an overpair...but maybe that's why I don't win as much as I should.

-Jeff

[hansarnic]

[ QUOTE ]
I tend to avoid tough decisions which is why I don't call the pre-flop raise with JJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

I take it you're joking?!

[jccookjr]

I had the same situation last night in a $10 SNG. Called the raise pf and he bet 200 on a similar flop. I pushed allin and he called with a pair of nines. The jacks held up.

[AA suited]

Why didnt you call or check/raise when he bet 3/4 pot?

Heck, Why did you check on the flop in the 1st place w/a flush draw possbile?

[Prime Time]

This is the first post in this thread that made perfect sense to me.

[pooh74]

here's what i dont understand. It seems you are conflicted between 2 different approaches with this PP of JJ. On one hand you seem to be playing it set only style, as one would play a 22-77 at this stage. On the other hand, since, after all, it is JJ, you feel its large enough a holding to call this PF raise w/o other callers already in. SO, on one hand, with 22 and that PF raise, you arent really getting the odds to call looking for a set (discounting implied odds) and you would fold it PF...but JJ you just call...but what were you hoping for on the flop? If you're only playing for the set, just treat it like 22 and fold the thing PF. W/o a clear plan you're just wasting chips...barring a set, there is not much of a better flop you could hope for than this one with this hand.

I would've bet into him as well on that flop to see where I stood...if he comes over you, then so be it...otherwise Im folding PF...there should be no in-betweens..thats just leaky.

[AtticusFinch]

[ QUOTE ]
Why didnt you call or check/raise when he bet 3/4 pot?

Heck, Why did you check on the flop in the 1st place w/a flush draw possbile?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I don't get. I think checking this flop is disastrous. You're ahead the majority of the time here, and there is a flush draw out. You must bet to find out where you are. If you're raised big, you can think about mucking it, but a button with AK or AQ is going to bet this flop no matter what, especially if he has at least one spade. He'll probably muck with those same hands uless they are both spades.

This sequence tells you absolutely nothing. If you're going to be this weak with JJ as an overpair, then just fold PF.

[UMTerp]

There are a LOT of buttons that will raise just about any two cards when faced with a bunch of limpers in front of them, even at the $100 level, though generally, the raise would be for more than 75 if he was just trying to scoop the dead money with trash.

My general line here against an unknown is limp, call the button riase (just like you did), bet out about 150 on the flop, and see what develops. AK and AQ usually feel compelled to call. If my opponent calls, and a non-spade card lower than a jack comes, I'll push the turn. If he's tricky enough to call behind on the flop with a pair higher than mine, he gets all my chips. If I get check-raised on the flop from one of the two stragglers, they'll almost always have a set, and it's an easy fold. If the button pushes over my flop raise, I have to use a little judgment, but I'm folding most of the time.

I also don't think it's the worst play in the world to push preflop when it gets back to you with ~200 dead money in the pot. I think you're ahead here more often than not, and it's almost guaranteed that the two players in the middle fold. Of course there's a chance that you run into a monster on the button still.

This is a very opponent-dependent situation.