Hey Clarkmeister? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

Edge34

02-10-2005, 12:37 AM

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It's pretty obvious they are.

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How do you figure? They just handled the most talent-laden and possibly best offensive team in the nation.

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Let's be fair here.

Duke: Beat UNC 71-70 at Cameron Indoor Stadium. UNC is a very, very good team and so is Duke. If they don't get put in the same bracket, both teams could go very far in March Madness.

Illinois: Has the advantage of playing Big Ten basketball, which makes them look better than everyone else by default. However, they haven't exactly dominated either.

All three are very close to equal IMO. Dee Brown is freakin' scary good.

EDIT: I don't think Illinois can handle its way deep into March, but they'll get the #1 seed and a few bad teams to start, which will help them get to at least the Sweet Sixteen with ease, barring some kind of upset (of course).

thatpfunk

02-10-2005, 12:42 AM

UNC played very poorly AT Duke and duke still only won by one. You are clearly dillusional.

MEbenhoe

02-10-2005, 12:58 AM

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UNC played very poorly AT Duke and duke still only won by one. You are clearly dillusional.

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Did you ever stop to think that maybe UNC "played very poorly" due to the Duke defense taking them out of their game?

johnnybeef

02-10-2005, 01:06 AM

both duke and unc played very sloppy, NC would have won if felton would have driven to the basket on the final play...and thats despite all of the turnovers. btw i will answer your question in the original posting as clarkmeister is biased, yes, illinois is a better team than Duke. Duke is a good team, but they lack depth.

mmbt0ne

02-10-2005, 01:06 AM

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Illinois will not win in March.

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I agree with this. However, neither will Duke. They'll be too tired with how many minutes all their stars get. Playing an ACC schedule, going through the ACC tourney, they'll just be gassed by the end of it all.

UNC has a chance to win, they're deep and athletic enough to stay with anybody, Kansas does too I think. Never count out UConn either, because an inside game is a lot more consistent than shooting teams.

MEbenhoe

02-10-2005, 01:17 AM

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Illinois will not win in March.

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I agree with this. However, neither will Duke. They'll be too tired with how many minutes all their stars get. Playing an ACC schedule, going through the ACC tourney, they'll just be gassed by the end of it all.

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Common misconception.

1. Duke is one of the best conditioned teams out there
2. Kryzewski has his practice plan set up to prevent burnout at the end of the season
3. With Randolph getting back from mono, Nelson playing strong, and Reggie Love expected back in a couple weeks, Duke could have up to a 10 man rotation.
4. The fact that there stars are supposedly playing way too many minutes is overexaggerated.

MEbenhoe

02-10-2005, 01:18 AM

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NC would have won if felton would have driven to the basket on the final play

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Williams and Randolph were both in front of him to stop him if he chose to drive. When a player as good as Felton doesn't take what appears to be an open lane theres a reason for it.

mmbt0ne

02-10-2005, 01:26 AM

It's not like other teams out there AREN'T conditioned though.

J.J. Redick - 36.5 min/game
Shelden Williams - 33.8 min/game
Daniel Ewing - 33.4 min/game
Sean Dockery - 27.5 min/game

Those numbers don't lie. You can't make a run into the post season with those numbers.

UNC has no one over 30 min/game. UConn doesn't either. Kansas has a couple people at 31, Simien's almost 32. At the DI level, I can't believe that there is enough conditioning difference to make up for numbers that skewed.

The only reason GT made a run last year was their bench, it keeps you in games and wears people down. Duke has 1 threat off the bench right now with Melchionni, and he's only averaging 7 ppg. The whole Duke bench is averaging 15.3 ppg. That can't and won't get it done.

BottlesOf

02-10-2005, 01:29 AM

Given the way the World Series and last 2 superbowls went, it's fairly obvious to me that BC is winning the title this year.

johnnybeef

02-10-2005, 01:34 AM

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NC would have won if felton would have driven to the basket on the final play

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Williams and Randolph were both in front of him to stop him if he chose to drive. When a player as good as Felton doesn't take what appears to be an open lane theres a reason for it.

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reason = it was a set play. the play busted, and he needed to improvise. that being said if he drives to the hole he will draw the double team and can either draw the fowl or dish it off to a wide open sean may (i believe that is who it was that was open on that play).

J.R.

02-10-2005, 01:41 AM

where was this post after the MD game? as that game proved, they live and die by the 3. if it isn't dropping they are in a lot of trouble, although as is always the case, their defense is excellent. and that was at cameron

then think about the wake game, they shot over 50% from beyond the arc and still got beat.

J.R.

02-10-2005, 01:43 AM

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When a player as good as Felton doesn't take what appears to be an open lane theres a reason for it.

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its the same reaosn he had 8 turnovers- questionable basketball IQ and inability to remain calm under fire, physcial talent notwithstanding.

GuyOnTilt

02-10-2005, 01:59 AM

Duke beating NC by 1 pt WITH HCA is def. not impressive.

PS. I'm drunk again. Pretty badly. 10 beers in 45 minutes will do that. Seriously, I think the 7 people in our main "group" have gone thru something like 800 beer in the last month, not including liquor. It's like I'm in a perpetual state of fadedness.

GoT

Shillx

02-10-2005, 02:06 AM

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Duke beating NC by 1 pt WITH HCA is def. not impressive.

PS. I'm drunk again. Pretty badly. 10 beers in 45 minutes will do that. Seriously, I think the 7 people in our main "group" have gone thru something like 800 beer in the last month, not including liquor. It's like I'm in a perpetual state of fadedness.

GoT

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Awesome. Reminds me of my freshman year at U of Arizona. Good times.

OOP: [censored] Duke. Wildcats > Devils.

Brad

nothumb

02-10-2005, 02:26 AM

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Did you ever stop to think that maybe UNC "played very poorly" due to the Duke defense taking them out of their game?

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Both teams played good D, UNC hurt themselves more with stupid turnovers and rushed plays, which you should know happens a lot at Cameron. I hate to admit it as a Carolina fan, but probably the best home court in the known universe.

I think on a neutral court Carolina is slightly better than Duke and both are better than Illinois.

Also, JJ Redick is a little bitch.

NT

MEbenhoe

02-10-2005, 02:30 AM

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both are better than Illinois.

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Clarkmeister, Cubswin, Bugstud, whatever other Illi fans are out there that i'm not thinking of, you all need to read this.

nothumb

02-10-2005, 02:37 AM

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Clarkmeister, Cubswin, Bugstud, whatever other Illi fans are out there that i'm not thinking of, you all need to read this.

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Not that I'm an expert. I think Illinois is an awesome team and IMHO there is about a 10% margin of excellence in college basketball within which a victory or loss is determined by situational factors and chance. A team's coaching, preparation, and toughness can shrink this margin and all 3 are tough teams, but I still think they all are within that range where one could beat the other any day of the week. However, on a totally neutral court with no knowledge of these factors I take Carolina. They are too deep and too talented. They played awful at Duke and still had a real shot at pulling it out.

NT

MEbenhoe

02-10-2005, 02:38 AM

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They played awful at Duke and still had a real shot at pulling it out.

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I always hate when people say things like this, because in my opinion the majority of the time when a team plays awful its because the other team caused them to.

nothumb

02-10-2005, 02:43 AM

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I always hate when people say things like this, because in my opinion the majority of the time when a team plays awful its because the other team caused them to.

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Duke had an effect, but a lot of Carolina turnovers were on bad passes, rushed plays, etc. There is such a thing as an unforced error in basketball. Yes, Duke was applying pressure and this had an effect. However I would say that Carolina's defense did more to shut down Duke DESPITE their best efforts. When Carolina wasn't throwing the ball out of bounds or throwing hospital passes they were penetrating and getting a lot of high-percentage shots. Duke was not getting easy looks and was forced to knock down a lot of 3's, including some tough ones (which they deserve credit for hitting). I don't mean to downplay the Duke D, because Carolina did get rattled, but remember that they are at Cameron, etc.

So, yeah, again, Duke played good defense, but Carolina had a game plan that could beat it (offensive rebounding, drive 'n dish, strong post game) and failed to execute.

NT

bugstud

02-10-2005, 03:16 AM

You have your opinions, I have mine.

I think they're 2/3 with kansas being a cut below. As far as living and dying by the 3 goes...pretty much everycollege game now is determined by the 3. It's just the way it has developed.

nolanfan34

02-10-2005, 03:18 AM

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PS. I'm drunk again. Pretty badly. 10 beers in 45 minutes will do that.

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Come on man, no one believes this.

Clarkmeister

02-10-2005, 03:32 AM

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both are better than Illinois.

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Clarkmeister, Cubswin, Bugstud, whatever other Illi fans are out there that i'm not thinking of, you all need to read this.

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Not sure why I would respond to it, but to humor you:

Illinois humiliated Wake Forest, who in turn crushed UNC and took Duke's absolute best shot on a hot shooting night and still pulled away. Just as a reminder, it was 81-49 when we pimped them like SE Delaware St. and pulled our starters. Meanwhile UNC trailed by double digits the whole game. Duke shot as good as it's possible to shoot and still Wake drew away on them.

Illinois has 10 wins vs the RPI top 50, UNC has 6, Duke has 7.

Illinois has 0 losses, UNC has 3, Duke has 2.

Illinois beat MSU by more at MSU than Duke was able to beat them by at Duke.

Illinois beat Wisconsin at Wisconsin. The same location that Wisconsin beat the same Maryland team that beat Duke at Duke.

Illinois has 2 road wins against ranked teams. NC has 0, Duke has 0.

Illinois has 5 wins against ranked teams (Wisconsin, Wake Forest, MSU, Gonzaga, Cinci), Duke and UNC have 3 combined (UK, MSU, Oklahoma).

Anything else?

Clarkmeister

02-10-2005, 03:36 AM

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Illinois will not win in March.

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Fair enough, but you have to pick someone then. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

johnnybeef

02-10-2005, 04:22 AM

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Anything else?

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no, i think that about settles that one folks!

thatpfunk

02-10-2005, 05:41 AM

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Illinois will not win in March.

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Fair enough, but you have to pick someone then.

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Kentucky

Shajen

02-10-2005, 09:46 AM

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Not sure why I would respond to it, but to humor you:

Illinois humiliated Wake Forest, who in turn crushed UNC and took Duke's absolute best shot on a hot shooting night and still pulled away. Just as a reminder, it was 81-49 when we pimped them like SE Delaware St. and pulled our starters. Meanwhile UNC trailed by double digits the whole game. Duke shot as good as it's possible to shoot and still Wake drew away on them.

Illinois has 10 wins vs the RPI top 50, UNC has 6, Duke has 7.

Illinois has 0 losses, UNC has 3, Duke has 2.

Illinois beat MSU by more at MSU than Duke was able to beat them by at Duke.

Illinois beat Wisconsin at Wisconsin. The same location that Wisconsin beat the same Maryland team that beat Duke at Duke.

Illinois has 2 road wins against ranked teams. NC has 0, Duke has 0.

Illinois has 5 wins against ranked teams (Wisconsin, Wake Forest, MSU, Gonzaga, Cinci), Duke and UNC have 3 combined (UK, MSU, Oklahoma).

Anything else?

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You are using circular logic on this Clark. In your example, Wake lost to Florida State too. So FSU must be better than Wake right? (or Duke for that matter, who beat them by 32)

I love debating which team is better, but using we beat the team who beat you is a fallacy.

BTW, Illinois probably IS better than Duke right now, simply because of depth.

I'm still thinking your Illini don't want to face Duke OR UNC during the playoffs. But then again, I sure as hell don't want my Dukies facing Illinois unless it's in the championship game, those boys are scary good.

J_V

02-10-2005, 10:43 AM

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Illinois humiliated Wake Forest, who in turn crushed UNC and took Duke's absolute best shot on a hot shooting night and still pulled away. Just as a reminder, it was 81-49 when we pimped them like SE Delaware St. and pulled our starters.

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Killer one liner. Illinois is the best team and its unanimous on all polls. ILL-INI!!!

hoyaboy1

02-10-2005, 10:45 AM

On a neutral court Duke is not one of the 5 best teams in the country IMO. However, because of their reliance on the 3 they have a better chance of beating the teams above them or losing to the teams below them than usual.

There is no way to argue that Duke is better than Illinois right now. UNC has more talent than the Illini, but are less consistent.

Shajen

02-10-2005, 10:56 AM

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On a neutral court Duke is not one of the 5 best teams in the country IMO. However, because of their reliance on the 3 they have a better chance of beating the teams above them or losing to the teams below them than usual.

There is no way to argue that Duke is better than Illinois right now. UNC has more talent than the Illini, but are less consistent.

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So you agree with me then.

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

PhatTBoll

02-10-2005, 11:09 AM

That somebody can actually believe that Illinois is not the best team in college basketball right now is laughable.

stationcalling

02-10-2005, 11:43 AM

i'm a bit surprised no one is mentioning the fact that michigan didnt have daniel horton in their lineup in the game?

given how close the game was, you (or at least i) wonder if horton could've been the 'difference maker'?

any thoughts?

Uston

02-10-2005, 12:13 PM

Illinois will not win in March.

LOL. And Duke will?

I'm not a Illini fan by any stretch and tend to hate the Big Ten but Illinois has been so far and away the best team in college basketball this entire season it's ridiculous.

Uston

02-10-2005, 12:20 PM

Actually, this thread is kinda making me an Illinois fan.

Clarkmeister

02-10-2005, 12:49 PM

I didn't include FSU for the same reason that I didn't talk about Carolina's loss to Santa Clara. Teams have letdowns during the season against teams they "should" kill. All the games I referred to were very big games for both teams involved, in addition to being common opponents.

The larger point that Illinois has beaten more quality good teams, a higher quantity of good teams, and unlike UNC and Duke has actually has won away from home, is still valid as well.

Shajen

02-10-2005, 12:57 PM

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I didn't include FSU for the same reason that I didn't talk about Carolina's loss to Santa Clara. Teams have letdowns during the season against teams they "should" kill. All the games I referred to were very big games for both teams involved, in addition to being common opponents.

The larger point that Illinois has beaten more quality good teams, a higher quantity of good teams, and unlike UNC and Duke has actually has won away from home, is still valid as well.

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Don't get me wrong, I do feel that Illinois would win overall if Duke or UNC played them in a best of 5 or something. Any given night though....

BTW, how do you feel (I don't watch the Big 10 much) the conferences stack up against each other?

mmbt0ne

02-10-2005, 01:01 PM

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<blockquote>En réponse à:<hr />
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Illinois will not win in March.

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Fair enough, but you have to pick someone then.

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Kentucky

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Oh man, I wish. I don't think they can do it though starting Rando and Morris as true freshmen and having Alleyne play like he is right now. Sucks for Hayes, because he deserves a run at the title as much as any other player, but I don't think it'll happen.

Now next year, they're going to be amazing. They're only losing Hayes and Carrier, Morris and Rando will understand how to play in the big games, and Azubuike will be the biggest scoring threat in the SEC.

Clarkmeister

02-10-2005, 01:09 PM

I think the Big East is the "best" conference this year.

I think the ACC is better than the Big Ten this year. It hurt that Iowa, Michigan and Indiana all lost their best players. Before that it was pretty damn close. The middle and bottom of the ACC is not very good at all, something that is overlooked IMO. As a comparison, Indiana gave North Carolina a much much tougher game than anyone in the ACC has except for Duke and Wake.

Aces McGee

02-10-2005, 02:42 PM

It's also important to point out that Illinois BLITZED Wake Forest and pretty much ran over Michigan State, too. Sure, they've had some underwhelming performances, but it's not like they're squeaking by these very good teams.

-McGee

MEbenhoe

02-10-2005, 03:23 PM

These types of arguments are worthless. You can't prove one team is better than another based on trivial stuff like this. The only way to prove it is in head to head competition. I'm not denying that Illinois is a very good team, but the fact that you think they're in a league of their own and that a team like Duke would have no chance against them is ridiculous.

Also one of your little facts was wrong. Duke has wins against 4 ranked opponents, UNC, GT, Oklahoma, and MSU. Plus with the high standard *sarcasm* of play of Wisconsin, Gonzaga, and Cinci, the argument that Illinois has had such a harder schedule is starting to lose more and more weight everyday.

GuyOnTilt

02-10-2005, 04:24 PM

Come on man, no one believes this.

Eh, whatev. It's true. A friend and I played two games of caps and the second one went into deuce several times before I lost, so it totaled ~12 beers in a little under an hour, which is a ton for a lightweight like me. I was out before midnight, which was a first.

GoT

nolanfan34

02-10-2005, 04:27 PM

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it totaled ~12 beers in a little under an hour, which is a ton for a lightweight like me. I was out before midnight, which was a first.

GoT

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Yeah, I've met you, I'm surprised you're not dead after that. Good work.

Clarkmeister

02-11-2005, 03:39 AM

1. Ga Tech isn't ranked.

2. Gonzaga is better than anyone Duke has beat with the possible exception of UNC. Wins over Washington, your beloved Ga Tech (a healthy Ga Tech, btw, something Duke didn't beat), and at Oklahoma St (by far a more impressive win than any Duke has had) have the Zags highly deserving of at least a 4 seed and maybe a 3 seed.

It's not my fault that neither Duke nor Carolina have proven anything against anyone on the road. Hey, it's the same critisism that people levelled at Illinois until they went into Wisconsin and ended their 38 game home winning streak. To be considered elite, you have to beat quality teams on the road. UNC and Duke haven't done that yet. And they better learn how, because if they play Illinois in Chicago or St. Louis, it will be a de facto road game.

J.R.

02-13-2005, 12:28 AM

http://graphics.fansonly.com/schools/md/graphics/md-top-turtle1.gif

bugstud

02-13-2005, 12:30 AM

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http://graphics.fansonly.com/schools/md/graphics/md-top-turtle1.gif

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Ni Han Sir!

mmbt0ne

02-13-2005, 12:40 AM

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1. Ga Tech isn't ranked.

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Currently. We will be by 2/21, probably even this week with Texas Tech and Villanova both losing.

And I still don't see any reason why we won't have a good chance to beat Duke at home. Especially with BJ and Jeremis back playing.

CMP

02-15-2005, 10:12 AM

Where are all the Jayhawks fans?

Maybe it's a local thing, but before last night, the majority of trash talking in my Chicago circles was coming from Kansas fans.

Ah well.

And we all float on.

CMP

Benjamin

02-15-2005, 11:45 AM

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1. Ga Tech isn't ranked.

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Currently. We will be by 2/21, probably even this week with Texas Tech and Villanova both losing.

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Well, not this week, and not terribly close either. Maryland, on the other hand, did move into the rankings. Makes three currently ranked teams that UNC has beaten, including current #3 Kentucky.

Go 'Heels!

B.