Battle of the blinds with JTo [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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SCfuji

02-09-2005, 11:16 PM

I have a few weaknesses that I would like to focus on eliminating from the 6 max games(I have more, but I want to tackle them one or two at a time). The first is when everybody folds to me in the small blind and I have a decent holding as I did in this hand:

BB has a VPIP of 40 and PFR of 0.xx after 50 or so hands. His Flop Aggr is 0.80, Turn Aggr is 1.00, and River Aggr is 2.30.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
4 folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Question #1: Raise Preflop?

Flop: (2 SB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, Hero 3-bets, BB caps, Hero calls.

Question 2: With this villain's flop aggression was I wrong to cap this on the flop? Should I have waited for the big bet street to unearth the 'strength' of my hand?

Turn: (5 BB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero caps, BB calls.

Question #3: Alright! I have top 2-pair. I am ahead of most hands that the villain could have been raising with on the flop.

River: (13 BB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, BB raises $4 (All-In), Hero calls.

Question 4: This river card somewhat sucks, but I still felt like I had the best and a bet is in order and I am definitely not folding to his all-in raise.

Final Pot: 17 BB

Notes: I basically thought this chum was spewing chips on the turn as his stack was dwindling down to the felt, so I thought I would tag along for the ride. I'm sure people will have different actions to suggest on different streets and I would appreciate any insight.

Thanks,
Fuji

berz

02-09-2005, 11:56 PM

You absolutely must value raise this preflop. Other than that, with opponent getting allin, I think you played it fine and expect you took it down.

SCfuji

02-10-2005, 12:16 AM

if i whiff the flop am i done with the hand or is it an auto-bet (i 'raised' pf in this scenario)?

pfkaok

02-10-2005, 01:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
if i whiff the flop am i done with the hand or is it an auto-bet (i 'raised' pf in this scenario)?

[/ QUOTE ]

i like raising this PF too... and i can't think of many spots where i'll check/fold on flop. almost always at least need to take stab IMO

SCfuji

02-10-2005, 01:25 AM

should i be mixing up 'stabs' with check raises when i whiff or is that just wasteful use of my money.

Joe826

02-10-2005, 01:55 AM

the single biggest raise you're raising preflop with a hand like JTo is for fold equity. your raise has little, if any "value" to it. this means when raising this hand preflop you *must* lead the flop, otherwise you're giving up alot of your fold equity, which was the point of raising preflop to begin with.

pfkaok

02-10-2005, 02:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
the single biggest raise you're raising preflop with a hand like JTo is for fold equity. your raise has little, if any "value" to it. this means when raising this hand preflop you *must* lead the flop, otherwise you're giving up alot of your fold equity, which was the point of raising preflop to begin with.

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed, particularly postflop if you whiff, Jhigh has almost NO value. CR usually doesn't work too well in this spot, b/c people usually get suspicious when you raise PF, then check, so a lot of times they'll check behind, unless they have a hand strong enough to stand a CR.

SCfuji

02-10-2005, 02:36 AM

am i giving up much if i pass on this situation? i obviously want to extract as much as i can every chance i get, but is this so marginal that its okay if i fork over my 50cents?

pfkaok

02-10-2005, 03:11 AM

JTo is better than random hand...you should certainly lose less than .5 SB on average if you play it here. i'd say J7o or so you could start making the case that you won't lose much by folding if BB is decent.

cnfuzzd

02-10-2005, 05:06 AM

as promised....

Question 1: Must raise this preflop. You have a hand that is much better than average, you can make better choices post-flop than your opponent, and the ratio of blinds paid to hands seen dictates a much wider range of viable steal-hands.

Question 2: Given that you didnt raise pf, i think its safe to assume that your opponent is probably not giving you much credit. However he is still being awfully aggressive, so while i dont think its bad to 3bet the flop, when he caps remember that he is telling you something.

Question 3: I dont think i would ever play this any differently.

Question 4: Bad card, but he could still be holding lots of hands you beat. I agree with your play here. He have a set? Im not willing to put him on AJ, but that seems also somewhat likely.

Speaking of set, this is where a pf raise would have helped you out. Even the most passive player will occasionally jam top pair against an opponent who hasnt shown strength in the hand, especially if youve been taking his money. Usually though, if they start showing this same aggression in the face of action from you, i think it makes it much easier to intrepret what they are doing.

peace

john nickle

SCfuji

02-10-2005, 06:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Speaking of set, this is where a pf raise would have helped you out

[/ QUOTE ]

i see now that the root of all my problems came from not raising preflop.

results: bb had 78s (clubs) for the turned straight and freerolled-river flush. what a great hand to cap on the flop. he must have read the deception section in ToP!

thank you everybody for your responses. my next posts plan on continuing on this area in shorthanded games where i am in the big blind and the SB raises me and i chose to defend as well as where i am on the button and decide to nab the blinds. these situations obviously occur much more frequently in the 6 max games than in the full ring games and i think i am losing money twice every orbit by either passing on certain situations or just giving up.

bunky9590

02-10-2005, 06:55 PM

Preflop, raise is much better than calling.

Flop: Bet call a raise. Board is pretty uncordinated, and his flop stats seem to point to he has a hand.

Turn: bet with the intention of three betting. Call a cap.

River: Bet, call a raise.

spydog

02-10-2005, 07:03 PM

I actually don't mind the preflop complete. If the BB is loose and passive, I just complete this and hope to catch a piece of the flop so I can value bet away. I hate raising this preflop against players that will always call my preflop raise and a flop bet. I'm not sure if Villian falls into that category, but if he does then I like your play.

Grisgra

02-10-2005, 07:09 PM

I raise preflop.

After he caps me on the flop and 3-bets me on the turn I slow down, figuring I'm behind to a set. Turns out he didn't have a set and was just being creative on the flop, of course -- point is that with flop aggression of 0.80 and turn aggression of 1.0 I don't think top two pair is good 50%+ of the time after the flop cap and turn 3-bet.

SCfuji

02-10-2005, 07:09 PM

is the strategy of calling a raise on the flop to show strength later or more so because: [ QUOTE ]
has a hand

[/ QUOTE ] ?

SCfuji

02-10-2005, 07:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I hate raising this preflop against players that will always call my preflop raise and a flop bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

dont i want players just fishing for more automatically out of disbelief? or are you saying that this type of villain makes this steal difficult because i will have to be betting blindy if i whiff hoping for a fold? since JTo is surely better than two randoms, i feel convinced from the responses that i should raise this preflop despite my villain being fishy.