spirit rock hand

[theBruiser500]

25/50 NL UB HU, game just becamse HU i was about to leave. I raise on button to 150 he calls i have AQo, flop is 7c 3 2h, he checks i check. turn is td, he bets $300 I call, river is 6s, he thinks a while and bets $2500.

i think there's a good chance he's bluffing but even if he's bluffing maybe he has a lower pair... oh yeah i could raise all in, that jst occured to me, thoghts? (he only has 2k left behind him thogh)

[tbach24]

If you think he is bluffing raise the turn.

[queenhigh]

I'd pass. That looks like he put you squarely on AK, AQ, KQ, and is either suspiciously overbetting a marginal hand he knows is good or doing his trademark overbet w/ the (near) nuts.

[Ulysses]

This hand can't be responded to intelligently without a good description of the speed at which he has been playing and other such factors.

[Voltron87]

Do you ever bet/raise Bruiser?

If you always play this passively of course SR is going to bluff 2500 with only 2000 behind, its a good bet by him as he knows you know you can't get him to fold and you've played so passively he probably puts you on missed overcards (PF raise all the checking).

I'm not judging your play but if you always play this passively short handed NL isn't for you.

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
This hand can't be responded to intelligently without a good description of the speed at which he has been playing and other such factors.

[/ QUOTE ]

Those of you who occasionally like to sweat this game know what a valid observation this is. The way SR plays at a full game, shorthanded, and HU, and whether he stuck or not, have a great bearing on the way he plays. And he is at his deadliest very shorthanded and HU, simply because he puts into constant practice the TOP admonition that someone who is always betting can have the best of it, but in a more sophisticated manner by waiting to take action until the turn or river.

He obviously read the poster for high cards that didn't hit and he will often make a continuation bluff on the river if called on the turn. Since he is well known for making overbets with the nuts, he puts maximum pressure on the opponent when he is totally bluffing. Plus being as sophisticated as he is, and sensing nothing other than high cards for his opponent, he in some circumstances would be equally capable of making such an overbet with bottom pair so as to elicit a doubting call from ace high.

I agree with the other poster that the proper turn play was to raise, and a healthy amount too.

[nongice626]

if you are gonna play spirit rock heads up you need to be more agressive on the flop. why the hell not bet the pot? doesnt that make things a bit easier?

[riverboatking]

if you're about to leave fold.
if you feel like playing for a while call.
if your right and you keep playing, letting him know you'll make that call may keep him from running over you for a while.

[mgsimpleton]

no one else puts him on 89?

he bet the pot with the draw on the turn, then hits and makes his spirit rock overbet with the nuts?

maybe i fear the worst but it seems like just the line for an 89.

[Cornell Fiji]

Easy fold.

Villain is known for overbetting the nuts so 89 is a distinct possibility as is 22/33/66/77/TT (would he always bet 45 on this flop?) and 2 pair. Although I have not watched this game, unless SR plays this differently, I assume that he is not putting in this bet with JT or A7s and therefore you are thinking that he has a really big hand or a really small one and are thinking if he has a really small one enough of the times to justify this call.

Of course a major potential problem is the fact that he could be bluffing with the best hand.

You need to win more than 43% of the time here to make this call profitable and I believe that SR is either betting a monster or bluffing with a better hand more than 2/3 of the time. A fold is in order.

A raise is only a good play if you think that he is 'bluffing with a better hand' AND will fold that hand 57% of the time. I think that this is clearly not the case as he would have not put in such a big bet with a hand that might win in a cheep showdown.

-Steve

[knifeandfork]

i got it now this "spirit rocker" guy overbets the nuts, doe he know that? he needs to get on 2+2 so we can teach him how to play, you know i know that he knows that i know ..... anybody agree with this line?
VI,
jason

[Jason Strasser]

Dont you usually bet this flop? I like the bet flop/check turn or bet flop bet turn check river line much better. Again, this may not be the most +EV play, but at least you will probably slow down an aggressive opponent like SR.

-jason

[amoeba]

there are very few people (certainly single digit) on 2+2 who can teach spirit rock anything about NL ring games.

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
Dont you usually bet this flop? I like the bet flop/check turn or bet flop bet turn check river line much better. Again, this may not be the most +EV play, but at least you will probably slow down an aggressive opponent like SR.

-jason

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol. In position he will often call behind to steal on a later street if he senses weakness, the same way he would smoothcall if he flopped a big hand.

[Usagi_yo]

I fold because I don't know what to do and people that soar with the eagles get sucked up in Jet engines.

I'm suspecting he called with medium pocket pair, or perhaps middle A. But then the overbet on the river looks very enticing. It almost screams "Snap my bluff off please". I don't think he's going to put that size bet in with QT, KT, JT. So I'm going to fold and not think about it anymore.

[Jason Strasser]

Weakness?

Who said the hero was weak. He has AQ on a rag rag rag board. When its his action on the flop, I should think he has the best hand, no? And if he doesn't betting still isnt wrong.

Oh, and if prahlad needs a Don King type figure in his life, he now knows where to turn.

[theBruiser500]

[ QUOTE ]
Dont you usually bet this flop? I like the bet flop/check turn or bet flop bet turn check river line much better. Again, this may not be the most +EV play, but at least you will probably slow down an aggressive opponent like SR.

-jason

[/ QUOTE ]

this sounds like a limit hold'em line, he can't really call the flop with a worse hand in NL and if he just has a draw he's good enough so i doubt he's going to let me show down my ace high as good.

[Jason Strasser]

Well I like to think of it as a bet to protect your hand, and as cover for the times you'll bet here after you raised PF with nothing.

How's Shania today?

-Jason

[theBruiser500]

[ QUOTE ]
This hand can't be responded to intelligently without a good description of the speed at which he has been playing and other such factors.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah... i wasn't sure if this hand would be interesting for discussion when i posted it. based on how we've both been playing and all i think there's a good chance he's bluffing. so i guess i'm asking even if i think he's bluffing can i trust my read vs. such a good player in this pot? i figured i would give him respect and not lose a lot of money in a marginal situation vs. a v. good plaer who maybe is thinking a level above me. also, what if he hs a smaller pair, can i call because of that fact or maybe i should raise all in?

[Usagi_yo]

Well, what scares me is he may be only thinking he's bluffing with something like 33 or 44 or even A2s.

You may correctly read that he is bluffing -- and still lose.

[Ulysses]

You cannot just play your hand against him in these spots. As stupid and Tilt-esque as it sounds, you will have to play the player at times. The only way to play against him is to sometimes re-bluff him in these spots by pushing. I think just calling is bad because he can easily be bluffing with the best hand. Betting the flop does not really help much because this is an easy board for him to call and bluff you on a later street. Basically, he has to know that he can't always just take pots away from you if you don't hit them hard. If you just wait for big hands to do this, you'll get killed. Whether or not this particular hand is the right place to make such a stand is dependent on all sorts of stuff going on in the session.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, what scares me is he may be only thinking he's bluffing with something like 33 or 44 or even A2s.

You may correctly read that he is bluffing -- and still lose.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why Bruiser would raise.

[ObnxNole]

Excellent game selection Bruiser...Heads Up versus Sprit Rock...That's funny! /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Lawrence Ng]

[ QUOTE ]
Excellent game selection Bruiser...Heads Up versus Sprit Rock...That's funny!

[/ QUOTE ]

challenging one of the best online NL players is not funny, it's smart. It's how Bruiser is going to get better.

Lawrence

[TheWorstPlayer]

All this talk about game selection is interesting and everything, but the fact of the matter is that Bruiser said in his initial post that the game just became HU and he was about to leave.

[Ian]

P. would not normally consider a hand that could beat AQ HU on river a "bluffing hand", so this is either a value bet or a hand worse than AQ -- no in between here.

[legend42]

[ QUOTE ]
Lol. In position he will often call behind to steal on a later street if he senses weakness, the same way he would smoothcall if he flopped a big hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bruiser had position. SR checked the flop to him, and he checked behind.

[gcoutu]

This is the third post in which you have had a good hand playing 25-50 and you check called all the way down. Are you playing above your comfort zone? The AK hand had to be the worst IMO. Maybe you are not quite ready for the pressure of that game even though you have done so well in the 5-10 NL. I think you are playing with scared money, or at least from the lines I have seen. If not, then stop playing weak tight.

[knifeandfork]

sorry twas a feeble attempt at humor and possibly an attempt to start up a dsicussion that he knows that people think he overbets the nuts all the time. ive watched this game a time or two and its really about as entertaining a sweat of online poker as can be. El D if you werent pushing 10k posts i would read them all (and i still may). i think

"challenging one of the best online NL players is not funny, it's smart. It's how Bruiser is going to get better."

that brusier will improve by playing in this game , although im not sure this is the best way for him (or anyone) to improve. but hey if you got the roll kiddo you are still young go for it!
jason

[The Gift Of Gab]

[ QUOTE ]
P. would not normally consider a hand that could beat AQ HU on river a "bluffing hand", so this is either a value bet or a hand worse than AQ -- no in between here.

[/ QUOTE ]
wrong. he is much better than that.

[GFunk911]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
P. would not normally consider a hand that could beat AQ HU on river a "bluffing hand", so this is either a value bet or a hand worse than AQ -- no in between here.

[/ QUOTE ]
wrong. he is much better than that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get it. The poster was saying that SR would (correctly) consider any hand that would beat a busted Ace-Paint to not be a bluffing hand, so he wouldn't be bluffing with a hand that turned out to be good. It seems like the poster was giving SR all the possible credit. What do you mean "he's better than that."

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
P. would not normally consider a hand that could beat AQ HU on river a "bluffing hand", so this is either a value bet or a hand worse than AQ -- no in between here.

[/ QUOTE ]
wrong. he is much better than that.

[/ QUOTE ]

What he said.

[The Gift Of Gab]

how does pf know that bruiser has ace high? he can't have a ten he hit on the turn? a slowplayed set or overpair? something like a2? a flush draw? (i can't tell if the board was rainbow on the turn.)

my point was that pf is capable of bluffing like this with many hands that beat what we know bruiser has, but may not beat many of the hands pf thinks bruiser would call with on the turn.

there are few things sicker than correctly picking off a bluff and losing anyway.

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
P. would not normally consider a hand that could beat AQ HU on river a "bluffing hand", so this is either a value bet or a hand worse than AQ -- no in between here.

[/ QUOTE ]
wrong. he is much better than that.

[/ QUOTE ]

What he said.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree 100%. What anyone who does not see this is assuming is that a value bet would be made with a BIG hand only, and that SR would check down a lesser made hand in the hope it was good. As I said in my earlier post though, he could just as easily have bottom pair on the board, or for that matter, a medium pocket pair that did not hit a set. For that matter since it's SR, he could also have AK seeking to bet another AK off a split. Headsup any pair is often a monster, and betting even as 'little' as bottom pair is indeed often a value bet. Again because of the way SR plays, he might in fact make such an overbet trying to elicit a doubting call from A high. He is that good, and even if you have seen him at times not playing his best, HE IS STILL THAT GOOD.