At what point do you give up this hand? [Archive]

View Full Version : At what point do you give up this hand?

bkm

02-09-2005, 08:44 PM

UTG+1 is a fish. No read on UTG.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 3 folds, Button calls, 1 fold, Hero checks.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, Button folds, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Should I have even called at this point? I have middle pair and a couple backdoor draws, but are they even worth anything with only 2 opponents left? Is it ever worth playing middle or bottom pair when there is an Ace on board?

Turn: (3.75 BB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG raises, UTG+1 3-bets, Hero calls, UTG calls.

River: (12.75 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 raises, Hero calls, UTG 3-bets, UTG+1 calls $1 (All-In), Hero calls.

Final Pot: 21.25 BB

Hojglad

02-09-2005, 09:35 PM

I don't give it up. The pot is too big to fold and you have three of a kind with a decent kicker. Call down every time. The board is not draw heavy. Wouldn't you be ridiculously angry if the winner of the pot showed two pair? I'd expect to win this pot a lot more often than I'd expect to lose it.

DeathDonkey

02-09-2005, 09:37 PM

What kind of fish? Aggro fish? Passive fish? I could fold against some. I could cap against some. Meh, you played it ok.

-DeathDonkey

Shillx

02-09-2005, 09:40 PM

This is why the term "fish" is retarded. There is probably like a .01% chance that UTG+1 is one. These people virtually never 3-bet the turn, and if they do you are beat. Did you mean to say that he was LAG?

Brad

DeathDonkey

02-09-2005, 09:42 PM

Yeah true fish don't have a raise button /images/graemlins/cool.gif

neuroman

02-09-2005, 10:20 PM

I'd play it the same way, unless I had a solid read on one of the players and thought there was a good chance he had a better ten.

bkm

02-10-2005, 01:49 AM

OK, so what do you guys think each player has? UTG+1 should be classified as a LAG.

After the flop, I'm thinking UTG+1 has Ace-rag and UTG has a couple high cards giving him a gutshot and, perhaps, a backdoor flush draw if they're suited.

After the turn, UTG's raise makes me think he has 2 heart high cards for a flush draw and a gutshot or he has the other 10 with a better kicker. UTG+1's rag might be a 5 giving him 2 pair.

After my opponents raise and reraise on the river, I'm thoroughly confused. The only thing I'm pretty sure of is that I'm screwed.

I don't have any problem with my play after the turn. At that point, I was feeling pretty good. Perhaps, check-raising would've been better than betting.

My main question is should I have called UTG+1's flop bet? I would've saved $13 if I had folded at that point. Would it be a significant leak in my game if I always folded a middle pair when an Ace flops as long as I don't also have a good draw? I plugged my guesses of what cards my opponents held at the flop in a odds calculator and UTG+1 had a 60% chance of winning with A-rag. I only had about a 20% chance.

bottomset

02-10-2005, 02:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
My main question is should I have called UTG+1's flop bet? I would've saved $13 if I had folded at that point. Would it be a significant leak in my game if I always folded a middle pair when an Ace flops as long as I don't also have a good draw? I plugged my guesses of what cards my opponents held at the flop in a odds calculator and UTG+1 had a 60% chance of winning with A-rag. I only had about a 20% chance.

[/ QUOTE ]

what you said is a leak, sometimes you fold middle pair, sometimes you raise sometimes you call ... there are too many factors, but you want to ignore them all, and just autofold to an ace on board+bet?? thats really bad

you are getting 5.5/1 on your call, it might be a little thin, but i don't think its horrible to see the turn here folding UI

UTG coming back to life 3betting the river makes me think its T9? ..

HaIrYtHiNg

02-10-2005, 03:02 AM

I don't know if anyone agrees with me but I would most likely fold on flop because based on your read UTG+1 is a fish. Most fish play Ax so I wouldn't be surprised if he had an Ace. You had an 11% chance of gettin a T or J on the turn and it took you an 18% to invest in the pot. Even if you did hit the J, someone could have completed the straight (considering most fish would chase gutshot straights). If you did hit a T, like you did, then I would have played exactly how you played.

bkm

02-11-2005, 12:10 AM

Well, I was half right when I thought UTG+1 had A-rag. He actually limped in with AA. I was completely wrong about UTG as he had T9o. So, both of my opponents had full houses.