two mirage 20/40 hands

[goofball]

i am dealt JJ in the starting gate in LP. Local Nit open raises from MP I 3bet, both the blinds call. I don't really have a line on SB, he appears very tight playing only about oen hand an hour, but I've only seen him table marginal hands. BB is sitting there with sunglasses and headphones but is a good player anyway. I've been on a rush at the table, raising a lot of pots and tabling about half good cards and about half the kind of cards that make the Local morons start muttering to themselves about how I am young and stupid.

flop is AT4 rainbow.

SB bets, BB calls, LN folds, I fold.

ok, now the interesting hand.

7 limpers to me on the button, the limpers include all 3 villians from last hand and an UTG playing who is loose-bad, an MP player who is tight bad. He doesn't play a lot of hands but after the flop he just plays them badly, not exclusively passive or aggressive either. There is also a poster in the CO who is tight aggressive but nothing really spectacular AFAIK. I raise with AQo and they all call.

flop is 2 3 4 rainbow.

everyone checks to teh poster who bets, I raise, Loose Bad (LB) calls two cold, as does Tight Bad (TB) and poster calls.

turn is K

everyone checks to me, I check? (meh, seemed like the right thinig to do at the time)

river is a 4

LB bets out, TB raises, poster looks disgusted and mucks, I call, LB calls.

comments on all streets appreciated.

[BabyJesus]

Hand one looks fine. I might see a turn cuz you're getting 13:1 and your flop flat call looks kind of scary and you MIGHT get AQ or AK to check the turn to you, although not very likely if he has those hands or AT. I blank hits on turn and he leads again I muck.

In hand two I don't like the preflop raise. AQo doesn't do very well in multi way pots. You're looking at a possible 9 ways pot even if you do raise. You may get yourself a free card if you raise preflop. But I would rather sneak in with a pretty strong hand and play it from there. If I hit a pair someone will probably misread my strength and give me extra action with weaker queens or weaker aces.

I would rather just limp see a flop, if I hit it find out where I'm and go from there. If I miss competely muck it with minimal loss.

[Levi King]

Am I mis-reading the river action in Hand 2? You called 2 BB with AQ high? Did you make a flush or something and forget to mention it? I guess it's nut no pair, but there's no way I'm calling 2 bets here. You got your free card on the turn and your hand didn't make - why ruin the free card play by calling here?

[DcifrThs]

sung to the tune of the mickey mouse club song:

s-t-a, -d-a-r-, deeee-aaaaaa-r-d sta ah ndard...

hand two, call preflop. fold on the flop w/ many people in, even for 1 bet...why? because you're ace is not good often when you hit...and in a limpfest, often neither is your queen...

river is, uh, fold i think...

-Barron

[goofball]

whoops. river was a 5

[jfunk]

well now everything makes sense, seems ok except for the preflop raise

[goofball]

right, I also forgot to mention that TB spent at least 10 minutes explaining to me why one should never split 7's against a dealer 6

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
fold on the flop w/ many people in, even for 1 bet...why? because you're ace is not good often when you hit...and in a limpfest, often neither is your queen...

[/ QUOTE ]
He has a gutshot as well that is sometimes good (of course, the flip side of that is that in undervalues his ace even more since it can copmlete someone else's gutshot). I think that's enough to justify taking off a card in a pot this size.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
fold on the flop w/ many people in, even for 1 bet...why? because you're ace is not good often when you hit...and in a limpfest, often neither is your queen...

[/ QUOTE ]
He has a gutshot as well that is sometimes good (of course, the flip side of that is that in undervalues his ace even more since it can copmlete someone else's gutshot). I think that's enough to justify taking off a card in a pot this size.

[/ QUOTE ]

see thats the thing: his card completes a straight on the bottom end...BUT its also a card that his opponents are more likely than others to have so many times he hits it is a split pot.

also, he will end up hitting and losing the entire pot to any 6...althought the 6 may split the pot with another 6, you'll get nothing...

there's just so many ways to be 2nd best here that in a vaccuum with all clean outs then yea you have the odds to peel...but imo, this is not a situation that qualifies...

-Barron

[Ryno]

Taking off a card would be more reasonable if he closed the action...would suck to pay 3-4 bets to draw to a tie.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
Taking off a card would be more reasonable if he closed the action...would suck to pay 3-4 bets to draw to a tie.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's a close decision, and you might be right that folding is better than continuing. I have folded a lot in these spots myself. My point wasn't really to argue with the people who advocate folding. I just wanted to point out that Barron's anaylisis that we are drawing to overcards and they probably aren't good neglected to mention that we also have a crappy gutshot to draw to.

[elysium]

hi goo

in hand 2, you raise all those limpers pre-flop. no good goo. you should see ahead of ime that your hand doesn't like a lot of opponents hanging in there to the river. that's not what makes the pre-flop raise bad though.

when you have AQo, it is beneficial not to be in there with it when the pre-flop is raised. yes, you are the raiser, but being such, you are unable to tell whether the opponents on your left who call your raise might have raised themselves had you not raised. on the button it's less likely that your raise obscures your clarity about whether or not an opponent on your left calling the raise might have a stronger A or better starting hand, but when those opponents on your left limp in behind you, it is much clearer to you that you have the likely best hand in the field. you won't find this little tidbit about AQo written in any of the hold em manuals. it's something that you pick-up after while. the main problem is that when the opponents on your left call your raise, you can't tell whether or not they would have raised if you had only called and allowed them the option to raise, theorizing a little, that their decline of your offer means that you have the best starting hand.

not raising also keeps the pot smaller and will often give you driveout power; sometimes on the flop; sometimes on the turn, should you elect to use that option.

pre-flop raise no good goo. i'm sure i'm a lone dissenting voice on this one, but....oh, i can't change. the raise is puey.

[steveyz]

I knew it .... ;-)

[na4bart]

First hand: A no brainer.

Second hand: Bet I could look in one of your ears and see light from the other side,