Interesting wrinkle

[AtticusFinch]

Hero is UTG 4 handed with KTo, 1700 chips. Blinds at 150/300.

BB has only 20 chips left, so the total pot is only 170. The SB is the big stack with 5k chips.

Normally (with a full BB) this is an easy push, but now I have 10x the total amount in the pot.

I'm torn between pretending the small blind is the big blind this hand, and ignoring the issue and pushing, since I'll still have to pay the full BB when my turn comes around.

Thoughts?

P.S. I pushed and all folded. BB won the showdown, but I still profited 130 despite doubling up the BB. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[adanthar]

Easy fold, primarily because of your position and the small amount of chips you're trying to win (300/600 and this is closer.)

[ColdestCall]

It is an interesting push, but I think you are better off folding this one. As you noted, you are only trying to win 170 chips here instead of the normal 450. Plus, the SB has enough chips that he can call you here with a wider range of hands than you might normally expect, which turns the risk/reward unfavorable IMO, especially if the SB suspects you might be the type of player who would push here looking to steal, in the admittedly unlikely event that you get called and beaten by the caller and BB also beats the caller. I could be wrong, but I would feel like the 170 chips doesn't add enough to my $EV to make it worth taking any risk of finishing OOTM here.

[AtticusFinch]

W.R.T Adanthar's point about position, I don't think it's as big a concern bc the BB is no threat and doesn't really count as a player for position purposes here. It's more like being on the button in 3 handed. (Although I do get one extra shot to catch a hand before the next blind hits me).

Still, my intuition is that the two of you are correct. At the table I didn't have enough time to work out the math, so I erred in favor of pushing, since I only had 11x the SB anyway. But in retrospect a fold is probably best.

By the way, what's Party's policy for two players going out on the same hand on the bubble? If the one with the larger stack gets 3rd place money, it could have a significant effect on the decision here.

[ColdestCall]

I'm pretty sure the main pot gets settled first, so in the case where SB called in this example, and beat both you and BB, the main pot with 60 chips in it would get settled first, busting out BB, and then the side pot with you and SB would get settled, busting you out, so technically, BB busts out "first" and you get third place. Someone please correct this if this is wrong.

[AtticusFinch]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure the main pot gets settled first, so in the case where SB called in this example, and beat both you and BB, the main pot with 60 chips in it would get settled first, busting out BB, and then the side pot with you and SB would get settled, busting you out, so technically, BB busts out "first" and you get third place. Someone please correct this if this is wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

In that case you would have to:

1) get called by SB
2) get beaten by SB
3) Have BB beat SB

In order to finish OOTM. Not exactly a likely scenario with KT. I'm not sure if it's rare enough to make this a +$EV play though. I tend to doubt it.

[ColdestCall]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure the main pot gets settled first, so in the case where SB called in this example, and beat both you and BB, the main pot with 60 chips in it would get settled first, busting out BB, and then the side pot with you and SB would get settled, busting you out, so technically, BB busts out "first" and you get third place. Someone please correct this if this is wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

In that case you would have to:

1) get called by SB
2) get beaten by SB
3) Have BB beat SB

In order to finish OOTM. Not exactly a likely scenario with KT. I'm not sure if it's rare enough to make this a +$EV play though. I tend to doubt it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, that was just the nightmare scenario I was considering. It is rare enough to make K-T worth thinking about IMO, but I would still fold here because of the 170 chips.

[11t]

I think you could do worse things. The biggest downside to this is how it could affect your table image imo. Any decent player in the SB would recognize this play. I would just be most worried about it loosening up the calling requirements of the other players at the table.

[AtticusFinch]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you could do worse things. The biggest downside to this is how it could affect your table image imo. Any decent player in the SB would recognize this play. I would just be most worried about it loosening up the calling requirements of the other players at the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well then all you have to do is get dealt aces and bust them /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Good point, but KT is not a totally ridiculous pushing hand. I doubt it will have that much of an effect.

[Pokerscott]

I think you have to fold this one. With 11xBlind it is a questionable push anyway (against the big stack that is not risking their tourny to call). If the big stack was passive, you might consider calling and checking it down to get rid of the small stack. An aggressive big stack is going to take your chips if you call however so I really wouldn't even do that.

Save your chips and go crazy at some other spot.

Pokerscott

[rachelwxm]

Looks like a easy fold to me. You lost your tight image if you win. There is still some chance you could finish OTM if one of the big stack calls and bb beats sb who beats you.

Besides, I think this is a marginal push UTG anyway even you have FE.

[lorinda]

If you don't bust him, you effectively only post a blind of 40 next hand, assuming nobody raises.

This is a similar saving to the amount of chips you are trying to win.

Lori

[jcm4ccc]

[ QUOTE ]
Hero is UTG 4 handed with KTo, 1700 chips. Blinds at 150/300.

BB has only 20 chips left, so the total pot is only 170. The SB is the big stack with 5k chips.

Normally (with a full BB) this is an easy push, but now I have 10x the total amount in the pot.

I'm torn between pretending the small blind is the big blind this hand, and ignoring the issue and pushing, since I'll still have to pay the full BB when my turn comes around.

Thoughts?

P.S. I pushed and all folded. BB won the showdown, but I still profited 130 despite doubling up the BB. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to hijack this thread a bit. I misread the scenario and thought that the BB had 20 chips AFTER posting the Big Blind. So my statements below are assuming that BB still has a few chips left:


I do something in this situation that I have no idea whether it's a good play or not. I suspect it's a play that a novice would make and think is clever.

I will just call the BB, which is essentially putting him all-in. I'm kind of signaling to the SB that he can also come into the pot, and we'll just check happily to the river. Better chance of busting the BB with both of us in the pot (of course I don't come right out and say it).

At the level I play ($15 Turbos), this seems to work pretty frequently. I've never had the SB go all-in and try to get me off the hand, even though my call is signaling weakness I think. I've done this occasionally with absolutely horrible hands (29o), since I think there's a greater chance that the other stacks will let me stay in the hand until the river. And so, of course, I've won pots with absolute crap.

Now if the SB did go all-in, I would fold. But I wonder if this is so bad? At least the SB is putting the BB all-in (rather than folding and leaving the BB with 470 chips), which means I'll finish in the money if the BB loses. And I no longer have to worry so much about the big stack bullying me around.

Flame away.

[AtticusFinch]

[ QUOTE ]
If you don't bust him, you effectively only post a blind of 40 next hand, assuming nobody raises.

This is a similar saving to the amount of chips you are trying to win.
Lori

[/ QUOTE ]

But aren't you actually losing 110 in that case? If everyone folds and theres a full SB, you win 150. Now you only gain 40 at best, but if someone pushes, you're still out 300 if you have to fold.

Of course the SB would be highly likely to push if everyone folds around-- you'd save some money vs. the SB pushing, assuming your hand is no good.

Whether a push from up front is more or less likely depends on your table. Weak players would likely fold around and hope to get ITM, but a tricky player might push with less, hoping you'll fold for the same reason.

Sounds like a mixed bag to me.

[AtticusFinch]

[ QUOTE ]
we'll just check happily to the river. Better chance of busting the BB with both of us in the pot (of course I don't come right out and say it).

[/ QUOTE ]

This used to be a sort of gentleman's agreement in brick and mortar games. I've found that online players rarely cooperate, though. Whether because of general online rudeness, or ignorance of the concept, I don't know. Usually when I see this done at least one of the two is a weak/tight player who would check it down regardless.