Thought Smart Play at First, Now Don't

[akudlac]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t1545)
Hero (t1146)
UTG (t2521)
Button (t2788)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t400</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t2788 (All-In)</font>


UTG and Button had been going at it constantly. I'd put them in the loose/aggressive category.

...?

[david050173]

Has UTG been doing the miniraise a lot? With some players late in the SNG, that almost always means AA or KK. If I thought I was going to be heads up with the button, I am happy to make this call. If it is going to be 3 way with UTG it is a lot more border line. You are getting pretty low on chips (950) and if the Button and UTG have been playing a lot of pots you might not have a lot of stealing chances. On the other hand, if they are being reckless there is a good chance of one of them busting the other if you are patient.

[Despos]

With three positions paying out with 4 players remaining how could you not just let UTG and Button battle it out this hand and one take the other out then you get paid. Right?

[11t]

I'd call, you are getting too good of odds not too. If they are firing away at eachother the button could have done this with a low pp or a-x.

The only way I fold this is if the table was extremely tight and I got my BB 60%+ of the time and were able to steal almost every orbit.

I fold AK if there is an all in THEN a call, or if I am small/medium stacked and there is somebody about to go out on the next orbit.

[david050173]

[ QUOTE ]
With three positions paying out with 4 players remaining how could you not just let UTG and Button battle it out this hand and one take the other out then you get paid. Right?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you knew UTG would call this is an easy fold. The chance that the button has AA or KK is low (UTG is much more likely) so if you call and UTG folds, you are a coinflip at worst with a pretty decent chance of dominating.

[Despos]

I think it's crazy to call here. The other two all in'ers, one will be out or severly crippled and out in the next couple of hands. AK is a strong hand but is still a draw against a possible pocket pair. If you call here and get busted out you get no money. Isn't the money what you play for? They are handing you third or better on a silver platter if you just fold.

[BigHobo]

[ QUOTE ]
They are handing you third or better on a silver platter if you just fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're assuming that UTG will call, but he's not even remotely pot committed at this point. If UTG folds then Hero is still short stack and has given up an AK.

I call here. It is safe to assume that UTG will probably fold once he see that Hero is all-in so you're just going up against 1 guy with at worst a coinflip (yes, it's possible that he has AA or KK but I doubt it given the size of his raise). As short stack you have to take those odds.

[Despos]

Yes I am assuming that UTG will call. According to the original post, These two guy are loose players who are constantly battleing it out with each other. Given the info provided, why should now be any different?

[spciii]

Tough call here, but i say you push. A mindless all-in raise does not mean a monster IMHO. I think you have him beat. Also, at that level, you won't see a hand that good again most likely and the small blind will take another 100 next hand..
However, being that you're on the bubble, it complicates things a bit.
Good luck

[david050173]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes I am assuming that UTG will call. According to the original post, These two guy are loose players who are constantly battleing it out with each other. Given the info provided, why should now be any different?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because it is unlikley the previous confrontations have resulted in one calling another all in a whole lot. I think there is a difference between loose/agressive (ie playing too many hands and pushing them too hard) and reckless. The one other question is how many more hands of 200 BB are there left? Once it hits 300 your FE is really going to drop especially if you pay 1 more blind.

[parappa]

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t1545)
Hero (t1146)
UTG (t2521)
Button (t2788)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t400</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t2788 (All-In)</font>


UTG and Button had been going at it constantly. I'd put them in the loose/aggressive category.

...?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that this is an easy call. If they're LAGs, your hand is even stronger than it looks. Players will often miniraise b/c they're being successful in stealing the blinds with a miniraise, and they can fold if there's action. I'm more than willing to call button's all-in here, and I think UTG will fold pretty often.

[akudlac]

Thanks for all the replies.

My thought at the time(I should actually try thinking BEFORE I act) was to let the two of them battle this hand. My guess at the hands were a mid pair and either a better pair or two big cards. I never thought UTG was going to fold.

The results, which sickened me and caused this thread, are below:

<font color="white">Hero folds.
UTF waits 30 seconds and folds.
Villan turns over AQ.
I vomit.
</font>

[AtticusFinch]

Button's push smells like a steal, here, especially if those two guys have been duking it out. If UTG has a habit of minraising, I'd call. I doubt UTG will call with two all-ins, and if they are loose as you describe, you've got a fine chance of having one or both of them dominated.

If this is the first time UTG has min-raised, you might reconsider, but I'm still not sure I'd fold.

You're on the bubble with only 5 BBs against loose players. Your FE will probably be lower than you'd like. This is probably the best opportunity you'll get.

[Daliman]

I'd probably call here. If the intitial raise was a push or pot-commiting, then i'd fold, but I wouldn't be thrilled about it. Your call will just as often cause the UTG to fold as call, if not moreso to folding. All this combined with the fact that you only have T946 after the hand say call here.

[david050173]

[ QUOTE ]
Button's push smells like a steal, here, especially if those two guys have been duking it out. If UTG has a habit of minraising, I'd call. I doubt UTG will call with two all-ins, and if they are loose as you describe, you've got a fine chance of having one or both of them dominated.

If this is the first time UTG has min-raised, you might reconsider, but I'm still not sure I'd fold.

You're on the bubble with only 5 BBs against loose players. Your FE will probably be lower than you'd like. This is probably the best opportunity you'll get.

[/ QUOTE ]

Figuring out what the miniraise means is critical. If he has been pushing/3x raising everything, the call is a lot easier to make. If this is the very first time he has done this, I think AA-QQ are real possibilities and think about folding.

If UTG was not in the hand, would anyone here even consider not calling? I never make that fold but I am not sure if that is the right play. My thought has been a coinflip at worst to double up is better than trying to pull off 2 or 3 steals with weak holdings...

[rachelwxm]

I'd call. 5bb left, I cannot ever imagine folding AK. You have to realised that the range of hands people play 4 handed is much much different than Level 1. Even at level 1 I would call all in w AK 5 bb left.

If button actually has AA or KK, he might consider a smaller raise or flat call to induce more action. I think you are at least coin flip against him. With that huge overlay, I don't fold.