The bottom line about MS Sunshine

The question is why can't they just play at two separate sites? I know that MS Sunshine is going to say the reason that they don't do this is because Poker Stars games are so great. This is not true at all. There are over 20 poker sites out there and I am sure that your wife can choose one where the action is just as good or better (i.e. Party Poker).

What are the PartyPoker screen names for MS Sunshine and for his wife? Shouldn't sites publish player names when they know they are playing from the same home?

as per a thread below this is what a major site told me:


"At any given time, it is not possible for us to track how many wives/husbands, brothers/sisters, etc are playing at the same table. If you see any suspicious activity between certain individuals with other players, please contact Support so that we can investigate and take appropriate

action."

Party's games are great. My wife and I play almost twice as much at Party than anywhere else. We play under one account and switch off our playing. I have no idea what there policy on couples playing there is.


MS Sunshine

here's a response from another (unnamed) major site to my query as to whether my wife and i could play on the same table at their site:


"Dear Sir,


In reference to your inquiry, we definitely do not recommend anybody to play from the same location and at the same tables. However, we could fulfill your request if you send an email to ***@*** with your wife's account name, in order for me to add a comment to her account indicating you have requested permission to play on the same table from time to time.


Please note that this would imply that we might make regular checks to your game history when you play together, but we know there will not be any inconvenience for you do not have any bad intentions.


We look forward to your reply and wish you the best of luck.


Best Regards,


*** Investigations Team."

hi mssunshine

i have no reason to suspect foul play when you two play together on one table,esp since my friend gigi voted for you.however you should also understand the concerns of some other players about this.

first it is very hard for players who dont know you to believe your honesty statement,just because you say so.as you know from sad experience many players trusted some sites which went away with their money in the end,so they might tend to put distrust in front.so if lets say 20 players dont want to play with husband and wife on the same table i think its more prudent to ask the couple to play on different tables (or sites)than to ask 20 players to look for other games if they dont like to sit in this game.

you mentioned that cheating online is more easily detected because of hand histories and monitoring.i fully agree with this concerning plays which put one player between a sandwich.but i think there is another important point.if i was playing on a table with one friend who shared his hole cards with me,i think we two would already have a big advantage from the fact alone of knowing 2 percent of the deck more than the rest without ever exploiting this obviously.one pot in while where i could be sure to have the only trips for instance,cause i know my friend folded the case card would be enough to profit from.

again i want to say that i dont think you do this,and i personally wouldnt mind to play you two together but try also to understand the view of others in this situation

all the best

asteroid

The bottom line should be about what Mike Haven has been discovering -- the absolute absurdity involved in these sites knowingly allowing it to happen. I've been playing online for a few years now, I've even married a woman I met playing poker online. We each have our own accounts at most every site out there, but for whatever reason we've shared accounts, credit cards, paypal accounts, etc. However, I considered it common sense for us to never play the same table, hell I considered it common sense for us to never play the same tournaments. We went so far as to never even be logged into the same site at the same time. All of this because common sense told us that this could - would - *should* - get both of us banned from playing the site. This obviously is not the case however, so now we're going to start writing the sites to find out which ones don't give a shit about the integrity of their games... look out internet poker world, I can see, hear, taste and even smell not only my EV but also her's doubling, perhaps even tripling. I always wondered why a supposedly top notch player ran away and hid every time the game got 3 handed or even heads up. Now I know why, it's because he'd hafta play the same number of cards as me. And here I was thinking that it was because I've kicked his nuts in every time they got big enough for him to play.

I would feel safer playing in a game with Ms and wife than in many other games I have been in. Bottom line-if I suspect any type of impropiety I report the hand #(s) to site management for review. At least when they play together the site management knows and watches them. It's the unknown tag teams you gotta worry about.

You actually think that some "tag team" whose team play is so piss poor that you notice it and thus report it is what you need to be worried about? No team is going to last long when they "tag team" and pump up pots. It's the guy sitting behind two computers at the same table competently playing two or more hands that are going to rob you blind, yes blind, as in neither you, nor anyone else supposedly policing the game will ever see it happening. Any competent player, competently playing two or more hands at the same table needs to do nothing out of the ordinary, the knowledge of the extra cards is all he needs. The knowledge that the powers that be are watching closely matters not one iota.


Imagine, if you will...


How long would you sit in a B&M game with Player A on the other end of the table showing every hand he mucks to Player B, regardless of whether Player B was still in the hand? How long would the casino allow it to happen?


Now stop imagining and look at what we have here, not only does Player A show every hand he mucks, he shows the ones he plays as well. Hell, in this instance Player B also shows his cards to Player A each and every hand. And to top it off, the "casino" knowingly allows it to happen. It's simply absurd.

I don't trust anybody whilst I play poker, except my mother... but even then I cut the cards


For MSsunshine to claim that support can look through the handhistories to see that he is not cheating with his wife would mean that he is always playing the hands correctly according to the book, no expert player play every hand according to the book.


I would not play at a table where people have the option to cheat, jails are filled with people who temptation got the better of.

"I would not play at a table where people have the option to cheat, jails are filled with people who temptation got the better of."


Then internet poker may not be for you then, because if you do not think a poker site can catch players cheating seeing all the cards and using computer support then the least of your worries are a husband and wife who let you know, and the site, that they are sometimes playing in the same game.


With IM any two players in the internet world can be letting each other know their cards.


MS Sunshine

...make that coughing, while saying bullshit sound over the internet.


"Then internet poker may not be for you then, because if you do not think a poker site can catch players cheating seeing all the cards and using computer support then the least of your worries are a husband and wife who let you know, and the site, that they are sometimes playing in the same game."


There's absolutely no way in hell they can catch a competent player who is allowed to view more than one hand. He doesn't have to do anything out of the ordinary, just play quality aggressive poker, that's it. Just like he'd do with one hand - except now he has 2 hands. Approximately twice the EV and half the variance, what a wonderful world it must be. You can talk about the usual "tag team" type of partnerships all you'd like, those will be caught, and they will be banned. Those type of teams are only dangerous short term, however the more dangerous they are, the more obvious they are. A competent player sitting behind 2 computers at the same table is far more dangerous to those of us who play poker the way it is suppose to be played - in the long term. What you are doing is cheating, plain and simple. However, I too have more than 1 computer on the desk in front me, I too have a wife with accounts at virtually every poker site out there, so you can call it what you want, I'll see ya at the tables.

I also have 2 computers on my desk now. And i also have several accounts at the same pokersites. And guess what ??? I'm not even married !! Since it is clear that pokersites allow that to couples , i see no reason to not do it also. I always knew that online-poker isn't without risk , but i never thought that the sites even support teamplay. I let you know what their Collusioncatchersoftware is able to do. I'm curious myself.

I also have 2 computers on my desk now. And i also have several accounts at the same pokersites. And guess what ??? I'm not even married !! "


And guess what ???


I'm not even married !!

I'm not even married !!

I'm not even married !!

I'm not even married !!


That's right any two, or more, people can cheat. Being married has nothing to do with it. Having a rule that married players can't play in the same game will not stop even one couple from trying to cheat, if they want.


Why do most poker sites not have rule against it? Because they know this fact. Yep, if a couple wants to play together, if they plan to cheat or not, they can get around this rule and the sites know it. On the downside if they tell a couple that wishes to play together they can't, the couple can move to a site that will let them play. So, the sites that allow it seem to be happy just to know and might put both accounts on a higher alert status when they play together.


MS Sunshine

let's say you genuinely "make a mistake" and, say, fold your 77 in BB when your wife raises on the button (or whatever flies the final red flag on your accounts)


when you both get banned for supposed "cheating" will you look back and say, "well, that was a good idea: risking both of us being banned and all our winnings being shared out to past losers in all our games; just for one li'l ol' playing mistake or two!"?

"That's right any two, or more, people can cheat. Being married has nothing to do with it."


True.


"Having a rule that married players can't play in the same game will not stop even one couple from trying to cheat, if they want."


False, it'd stop me, and I'd bet it would stop you as well. In fact, I'd bet that it'd stop anyone who actually plays the game with a +EV. A player who plays with a +EV given a license to cheat for fear of them taking their business elsewhere(?), that's unbelievably absurd. The very people who should be protecting the game, the competent players, are destroying it, that's simply stupid. Yes, cheaters will always cheat, but I thought we were suppose to be poker players, possibly a lower life form, but certainly a higher life form than a cheat. Twist it anyway you want, it's cheating, it's bad for the game, and it's bad for the sites that allow it. You know all these things, but since it's good for you...

Since we don't cheat, I believe we would be able to explain it to the site's satisfaction.


As to taking all our winnings away and giving it back to all the losers for one hand that seems odd. Really Mike, what are you smoking today?


Mike, outside of here, where they are making a mountain out of a molehill, this is no big deal. We rarely play together, you and I play together much more in any one week, then Lesley and I have played total.


It just seems that posters here can't get past the fact this is not live poker, that collusion happens on the internet and the sites catch most of it, and barring players from the same city from playing in the same games would be as useful as not letting couples play.


If this whole thread had started about a couple that played $1-2 and no one produced a hand that showed possible collusion, it would have been shouted down as "Why are you wasting our time with this?"


But we have a poster that does not agree that the deal is non-random and is willing to point out posters that have no clue about alot of things, but couldn't win at internet poker using three computers and stolen credit cards. I don't include you in this group, by the way.


MS Sunshine

"Twist it anyway you want, it's cheating, it's bad for the game, and it's bad for the sites that allow it. You know all these things, but since it's good for you..."


Cheating is cheating, but a couple playing together is not. It doesn't matter how you twist it and how often you repeat it, that you think we cheat. It doesn't make it true. You don't like the rule. You don't like me. You don't like your life. I don't know, but if it is bad for the sites that allow it, then they will fail.


Has anyone noticed the total lack of any response from any poker site operators, that rarely miss a chance to help with a problem and add a link to their site in their reply, about this subject here? Even when asked point blank for a response.


"MS Sunshine, please stop playing with your wife, it will ruin internet poker, as we now know it, and soil your good name" God, I can hear the shrillness in your posts. How can you people ever win at poker with no balls at all?


Have a nice day.


MS Sunshine

for what it's worth, personally, if you don't, then i have no problem with your playing together, and i choose to believe, backed up by circumstantial evidence from the site in question's security team and from your co-players' comments, that you do not and would not cheat intentionally, as nor would i in similar circumstances (but i do have to admit i do not play with my wife - one of her many complaints about me - nor do i play poker with her - mainly so i can NOT be accused of any impropriety - a la mason)


but anyway - that's by the by - here's a copy of an old post you made - what about your writing a new, similar version? :


"I'm never going to get into another non-random deck thread on this forum again. Not one.


It doesn't matter if an ex-programmer from Paradise Poker comes here giving out all the code for the complete cash-out and lose project.


If the dumbest poker player in the solar system leaves himself wide open for the best your-a-stupid- moron one-liner that I have saved since the beginning of time. I'm going to put it back in the deep freeze.


I didn't come here to join some never ending is there a god type of argument every damn week. No one knows, here at least, if any online site is juicing the deck. As much as I like to taunt the 'net kooks this is a waste of my time, and that is saying alot, with my low threshold for productive use of my time.


I, on this day promise to put both of my cats thru a tree shredder if I ever respond to another post of this kind. Though I think the tree shredder gets the worst of it when Shaggy goes thru.


Everytime I respond to one of these threads lately, I swear I can hear, the seconds of my life tick away in this totally worthless endeavor.


Either entertain me or show me how to make money, and I'm willing to do the same. Just don't bore me.


MS Sunshine"

Sunshine will never give in . Doesn't matter how strong the arguments.


If you play one table with your wife... i will never believe you (or any person on this planet) that you do not cheat one way or the other. And if it is only 1 time in a million hand. You will do it one day. And i'm sure you did already. I can't think of anybody believe you that you never knew a holecard from your wife , or that you took advantage somehow . It's just to easy to be seduced to do it. And i personally do not believe that any pokersite is able to spot good collusion even if they know you are playing 1 table. The fact that you know (or any other player) how sites probably try to find out is enough to perfectly adjust. The fact that they let you play 1 table is enough proof that they must be morons without a brain. I can think about a lot of situation where hands can be played in different ways without raising any suspicion. And you only need to do it very seldom and still make a couple of bets a day. If done the right way it is undetectable.

Leave them alone! You have absolutely, positively no evidence that they are doing anything in the game. If you have a policy issue with letting relatives play at the same table in games, write the site operator.