playing top two pair when the third card to a flush falls?

[snapfc01]

i don't have an exact hand but i would like to know different players thoughts on the subject with respect to different buy in levels, blind level, type of player... ect.

lets say you hold AKo and make a reasonable preflop raise to 4 or 5x blinds utg and get one caller in late position. flop come AKx with two hearts(neither your A or K is a heart). my play here would always be bet about 1.5x pot (the reasoning here is to make it wrong odds for the flush and maybe even straight draws to play it out... anyone think my play on the flop should change?). then that card you don't want to see comes... a heart. what do u do?

A)check... seems wayyyyyyyy too weak of a play for me... asking to be bluffed out of the pot.

B)bet out a little to "test the waters"... unless you have a huge stack chip stack in comparsion to the blinds you can't do much more then a 1/4 or if you're lucky a 1/2 pot size bet here without completely commetting yourself to this pot. however i still think a good player could see weakness with this and raise all in over top seeing the weak bet after the third heart... (then is it an auto fold?... lets assume the other guy has you covered or close enough to where it'd hurt badely to lose if you call)

c) Push... the only sure way you won't be bluffed out of this good size pot... however you're risking alot where you'll most likely only be called when you're a big dog.

i realize your move would be different due to different element of the game... if you have time i'd love to hear how your play would change with these elements.

thanks for your thought
Gerard

[snapfc01]

any thoughts at all?

[Pokerscott]

You bet out enough to make the flush fold.

If I bet 1.5xpot and got called, I am worried about trips not a flush draw (and I am hoping for AQ or another 2 pair). If the guy has the flush draw well he wins. No way am I dropping it when a flush card hits...

pokerscott

[snapfc01]

so you'd bet 1.5x the pot on the flop then continue to bet out and call any raise on the turn if a flush card hitS?

[Despos]

If the third flush card hits you really just have to consider the person who made the call. You could be in trouble if hes a wild player. Even so, if the flush card does hit I would still bet it out, just be wary of any raises. And if he does have the flush, just take comfort in knowing that he's playing badly and you'll win from him most of the time.

[Pepsquad]

[ QUOTE ]
i don't have an exact hand but i would like to know different players thoughts on the subject with respect to different buy in levels, blind level, type of player... ect.

lets say you hold AKo and make a reasonable preflop raise to 4 or 5x blinds utg and get one caller in late position. flop come AKx with two hearts(neither your A or K is a heart). my play here would always be bet about 1.5x pot (the reasoning here is to make it wrong odds for the flush and maybe even straight draws to play it out... anyone think my play on the flop should change?). then that card you don't want to see comes... a heart. what do u do?

A)check... seems wayyyyyyyy too weak of a play for me... asking to be bluffed out of the pot.

B)bet out a little to "test the waters"... unless you have a huge stack chip stack in comparsion to the blinds you can't do much more then a 1/4 or if you're lucky a 1/2 pot size bet here without completely commetting yourself to this pot. however i still think a good player could see weakness with this and raise all in over top seeing the weak bet after the third heart... (then is it an auto fold?... lets assume the other guy has you covered or close enough to where it'd hurt badely to lose if you call)

c) Push... the only sure way you won't be bluffed out of this good size pot... however you're risking alot where you'll most likely only be called when you're a big dog.

i realize your move would be different due to different element of the game... if you have time i'd love to hear how your play would change with these elements.

thanks for your thought
Gerard

[/ QUOTE ]

As with any question pertaining to SNG's, it would really help to know the texture of the situation. Very early into a tourney, I may check/call and fold to a massie overbet. In the later stages, I think the line you are talking about is fine. 1.5X flop bet on the flop. On the turn, I'd lean toward applying even more pressure - you can't automatically give people credit for the flush. Against a tight, unimaginative opponent I probably lay down to his turn raise. If he flat calls the turn I'm probably check-calling the (non /images/graemlins/heart.gif) river. Many, many variables to consider here.

[snapfc01]

thanks for your thoughts... i know it depends on the timing and player however this has happened a few times in the past two days and i was just wondering how others played it.

[Pokerscott]

[ QUOTE ]
so you'd bet 1.5x the pot on the flop then continue to bet out and call any raise on the turn if a flush card hitS?

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty much. I like my hand and it is hard to lay it down at this stage. There are a lot of hands he can have that I can beat. I am not worried about the flush on the turn since you really should have forced out the flush already. I think about a half pot bet on the turn would be about right to again give any developing flushes bad calling odds.

As someone mentioned, you only get so many playable hands in a tourney that you don't want to lay down winning hands if you can help it.

Pokerscott

[snapfc01]

glad to see many people agree with how i play this hand. can i ask what buy in sngs u play?

[Seadood228]

I think a lot of this depends on the blind amounts and relative stack sizes.

One can argue that it will be difficult to fold a flush draw during the "big bet" poker stages early in a SNG. Heck, a lot of pro players will not fold a flush draw on the flop if there's enough money behind.

Overbetting the flop is one way to go, but against most competition, you're going to get called. You'll probably get a call from some people who have absolutely nothing, just for a chance to bluff you.

The problem with overbetting is that it leads to a very tough decision on the turn if the scare card hits. You bet such a large amount that it's difficult to make any sort of continuation that doesn't commit you. It's definitely a tough spot to be in.

I've seen a LOT of good NL cash game players check the flop with and without position. Then they either put the hammer down on the turn or go for the big checkraise. By doing this you've given your opponent the tough decision and it will often be with one card to come.

What if they turn card brings your scare card? THEN you bet. Your opponent will be hard pressed to bluff you here.

I've also seen players make a very small bet here. If you do that, it becomes much easier to define your hand when/if the scare card hits.
A rule of mine is to only overbet the pot when don't want to put any more money in, unless of course the next card is favorable.