argument with PokerDali

[curtains]

Here is the hand,I have A9s, Daliman says its a fold, I think it's a very easy call. Please settle the debate, thanks! (Edit - the buyin was $215 sit and go)




500/1000 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (NL) (Tournament 9395464) - Tue Feb 08 22:32:17 EST 2005
Table Table 11784 (Real Money) -- Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 3
Seat 2: curtainz (5640)
Seat 6: BigPotsOnly (1325)
Seat 7: RoJoSox (3035)
RoJoSox posts small blind (250)
curtainz posts big blind (500)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to curtainz [ 9d, Ad ]
BigPotsOnly folds.
RoJoSox raises (2785) to 3035
RoJoSox is all-In.
curtainz calls (2535)
Creating Main Pot with $6070 with RoJoSox
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 9s, 2h, Qs ]
** Dealing Turn ** : [ Kc ]
** Dealing River ** : [ Qh ]
** Summary **
Main Pot: 6070 |
Board: [ 9s 2h Qs Kc Qh ]
curtainz balance 2605, lost 3035 [ 9d Ad ] [ two pairs, queens and nines -- Ad,Qs,Qh,9d,9s ]
BigPotsOnly balance 1325, didn't bet (folded)
RoJoSox balance 6070, bet 3035, collected 6070, net +3035 [ Js Qc ] [ three of a kind, queens -- Kc,Qc,Qs,Qh,Js ]

[AtticusFinch]

Not enough info. Is ROJO pushing every hand, or has he folded the last 10?

[curtains]

I'll not comment on it as Daliman had no such information, but I don't think its too relevant anyhow.

[AtticusFinch]

[ QUOTE ]

I'll not comment on it as Daliman had no such information, but I don't think its too relevant anyhow.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's relevant. Against a super-tight player it's an easy fold. Against a pretty loose player it's an easy call.

[curtains]

There arent many super tight players in the $200 sit and gos when the blinds are 250-500. Also even a super tight player will move allin heads up with a lot worse than A9s on average.

[AtticusFinch]

[ QUOTE ]

There arent many super tight players in the $200 sit and gos when the blinds are 250-500.


[/ QUOTE ]
I only play the 55s, so I can't speak to the 215s. There aren't a ton of super tight players at that level in the 55s, but there are a number of "third place or nothing" sorts around, who steal less than 15% of the time on the bubble. If one of them pushes, I only call with a premium hand like a big pair, AK, AQs, knowing I can easily blind them out later, as they usually fold too often, too.

[curtains]

There are 3 players left not 4. The bubble is over.

[AtticusFinch]

True, and some of them loosen up a lot once in the money, but not all.

I think you're right to call most of the time but that there's still room for a read here.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]

I'll not comment on it as Daliman had no such information, but I don't think its too relevant anyhow.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dali DID have such info, and Rojo said he was playing tight.

[Pepsquad]

IMHO, I think it was a poor call. With the blinds at ~500, BigPotsOnly (after posting the BB next hand) will be forced to push with any two. THAT, is the all-in you want to call, not this one.

Pep.

[Seadood228]

Since this a $200, I think it's safe to assume that all players will have a pretty good idea of how to play 3 handed /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I think it's a call as well. Your not much of a favorite over his range of hands, but you are still a likely favorite, even if it's 55/45. If you win here a 1st is all but locked up. If you lose you still have enough to make a comeback. Given the payout difference between 1st and 2nd, I like the call.

You are basically taking a 55/45ish shot at winning the whole thing. If you lose here, you still have a fighting chance at finishing first. I don't see any problem with that.

Now if you had more chips, that might be a different story.

I guess you could argue that your current chip position puts you in a spot to terrorize the 2nd chip stack, but with a pretty desperate shortie to your left, it becomes a little more difficult. Plus it doesn't look too much like the 2nd stack is worried about going out in 3rd.

[HoldingFolding]

Results oriented, but you made the right decision (60% favourite), so your read was good. Just a pity 'bout all dem queens. If you'd have won you'd have been in an excellent position to take 1st, which has to make the play EV+, since 2nd pays only $200 more than 3rd.

[curtains]

Yeah Rojo was playing so tight that its no problem for him to go allin with QJo against me. I really think this is an elementary call, do we really think there is a player who is going to not move allin there with something like A5 or KT. Is someone going to be that weak in a $200 sit and go to try to lock up second place instead of first.

[Gigabet]

It is always a mistake to call in this situation against a tight player...at this level. You have half the chips in play as it stands, and the tight player has 1/3 of the chips. You will rarely have more than a 60/40 lead in the situation, and by giving up the 500, you give yourself a chance to collect 750 whenever you are the button(the ss usually won't call as the sb, hoping the bb calls and busts out). So, with combined probabilities, you will almost certainly have more than a 60/40 edge when you are the button, especially since he is tight player.

That is the main reason you wouldn't call in the situation, because it is easy to pick up his chips without a showdown, not because you "only" have a 55/45 lead in the hand.

[Gigabet]

Everyone knows that rojo is a tight player.

[Daliman]

http://img215.exs.cx/img215/9237/curtains6qu.jpg

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
http://img215.exs.cx/img215/9237/curtains6qu.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh man, I think I just woke up my apartmentmate laughing so freaking hard. Only thing better would have been a pic of Dalibaby Pwning a curtain.

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Yugoslav

[Seadood228]

Well with this information....

It becomes an easy fold. A tight player will have uber tight calling standards with a shortie still in the game. Much better opportunities later on..

That's an important piece of info you left out there.

[Lazysmurf]

This is an easy call. The reasons are not esoteric. Basically a9s is a very strong hand in this situation. you could write out the sprectrum of hands that you are assuming he could have but any reasonable assumptions will lead you to the conclusion that your a9s is strong. This coupled with the fact that you are getting about 3500-2500 from the pot dictates that you call. If you are planning to fold a9s here what would you need to call. at, aj? what?

[curtains]

Ok first of all its not info I left out if I didn't have the info. Second of all , shortie has good chances of either busting next hand or not being a shortie anymore.

[Daliman]

You all fail to realize that very often in this situation, the SB is ONLY pushing with very strong hands since the other stack is so short, i.e. AK, AQ, AJs, 88-AA. Your best case scenario in almost any case here is being a 55-45 fave, and more than half the time be 25-45% to win the pot. Combined with the SB's known tightness, this is a fold. Not an easy one, but a fold nonetheless. A call is =EV at best long term.

[Seadood228]

That's not really the point here. Now that we know he's tight, curtains is in great position to win uncontested pots and chop away at the #2s stack. #2 stack will have to have a monster to call a button push from curtains and the shortie will probably fold his SB as well. A9s is a great hand 3 handed, but against someone who will likely be playing for second, I think you can find better spots.

So Gigabet and the others, do you still fold without a read on the player? I don't think I could.

[Gigabet]

You were in level 8 and hadn't noticed he was a tight player? You definitely made the right play by calling then.

[Gigabet]

I don't see myself in a situation where I cannot get a read by that stage in the tournament, but if it did happen, then I would call.

[Seadood228]

Sorry curtains, I wasn't trying to accuse you of leaving out information.

But I don't agree that the chances of the SB busting out next hand are high since his fate is primarily in your hands. You can fold your SB to keep him in or go after his blinds. When it's #2s BB, you can push and he probably won't call knowing it could move him up a spot.

Perhaps the level of play is a little over my head though.

[curtains]

"You were in level 8 and hadn't noticed he was a tight player? You definitely made the right play by calling then."


First of all Im playing 4 at once, second of all just because someone is tight early in the tournament doesnt mean they arent going to open up their game a LOT once the blinds are 250-500. Thirdly there are very good chances that the small stack's situation will change on the very next hand. (Meaning he will either be a normal stack or eliminated.)

[Lazysmurf]

If you know that the guy needs a monster to go all in obviously you can fold so it is really a question about what reasonable assumptions are about this player. If you can state that his spectrum of hands is, for example 88,aj and up then obviously you should fold. he went all in with qj. do you think it is reasonable to assume that that is the weakest hand he would go all in with. i would assume that it is more like any pair, any ace, most kings q9 q8s etc etc etc.

[curtains]

Once again, I don't count on the short stack's situation to just remain the same. It's as though the short stack is going to stick around for 10 hands with 800 chips. Also the difference between 1st+2nd is twice that of 2nd+3rd...if I am the SB there (And I am a tight player), I am going to move allin with a pretty reasonable range of hands.

"That's not really the point here. Now that we know he's tight, curtains is in great position to win uncontested pots and chop away at the #2s stack. #2 stack will have to have a monster to call a button push from curtains and the shortie will probably fold his SB as well. A9s is a great hand 3 handed, but against someone who will likely be playing for second, I think you can find better spots.

So Gigabet and the others, do you still fold without a read on the player? I don't think I could."

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
"You were in level 8 and hadn't noticed he was a tight player? You definitely made the right play by calling then."


First of all Im playing 4 at once, second of all just because someone is tight early in the tournament doesnt mean they arent going to open up their game a LOT once the blinds are 250-500. Thirdly there are very good chances that the small stack's situation will change on the very next hand. (Meaning he will either be a normal stack or eliminated.)

[/ QUOTE ]


4 at once? All by yourself? you must be THE ONLY PERSON ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH THAT CAN DO THIS! Somehow the rest of us 4+tablers,(at LEAST 4 in this thread alone..) manage to play more than nuts and bolts poker, using reads, profiles, and possibly even a tell or 2.

Sorry, yer gambit play is SERIOUSLY sub-optimal overall.

[curtains]

I believe Rojo would be pushing with any ace there.
Also since everyone seems to be placing the absolute premium on everyone's image, it can't hurt to call and let people know that I'm going to call in those situations if I think I'm ahead. I don't want to be folding 90+% of my hands there. If you really think that Im going to fold hands like A9s + stronger even, it must be correct to push with any 2 cards as the SB.

"You all fail to realize that very often in this situation, the SB is ONLY pushing with very strong hands since the other stack is so short, i.e. AK, AQ, AJs, 88-AA. Your best case scenario in almost any case here is being a 55-45 fave, and more than half the time be 25-45% to win the pot. Combined with the SB's known tightness, this is a fold. Not an easy one, but a fold nonetheless. A call is =EV at best long term. "

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]

Once again, I don't count on the short stack's situation to just remain the same. It's as though the short stack is going to stick around for 10 hands with 800 chips. Also the difference between 1st+2nd is twice that of 2nd+3rd...if I am the SB there (And I am a tight player), I am going to move allin with a pretty reasonable range of hands.

"That's not really the point here. Now that we know he's tight, curtains is in great position to win uncontested pots and chop away at the #2s stack. #2 stack will have to have a monster to call a button push from curtains and the shortie will probably fold his SB as well. A9s is a great hand 3 handed, but against someone who will likely be playing for second, I think you can find better spots.

So Gigabet and the others, do you still fold without a read on the player? I don't think I could."

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't kid yourself; you did NOT take all of this into account before making the call. YOu looked at your hand, saw A9s, said "my, this is a fine hand", and called." You can't even get a feel for a player, but you're postulating the SS's future actions combined with the fact that the SB is going to try to steal from a player who wouldn't mind calling with a decent hand. Riiighttt....

[curtains]

Forgive me sometimes I don't pay attention as much as I shuold to how the people are playing when playing a bunch of tables...I like to just relax and hope that I'll win anyway. Acting like I'm an idiot because I don't know if hes a tight player after 7 rounds is stupid. Tight has a much different meaning at the end of a tournament. Will he call in the BB with A7s if I move allin on the button? I have no freaking idea. He seemed reasonably aggressive preflop however.
Anyhow the guy moved allin on me with QJo, do we really expect him to not move allin with hands like A6, A2s, K9...
I understand all the reasons that are being given for folding, I just don't think they outweigh the advantage that I'm getting by calling.
I think that Im definitely a favorite more often than I'm a dog, there is money in the pot, I'm still healthy if I lose the hand, and I'm not going to be able to just pick up everyone's blind as easily as people are making it out to be.


"4 at once? All by yourself? you must be THE ONLY PERSON ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH THAT CAN DO THIS! Somehow the rest of us 4+tablers,(at LEAST 4 in this thread alone..) manage to play more than nuts and bolts poker, using reads, profiles, and possibly even a tell or 2.

Sorry, yer gambit play is SERIOUSLY sub-optimal overall."

[Gigabet]

[ QUOTE ]
First of all Im playing 4 at once, second of all just because someone is tight early in the tournament doesnt mean they arent going to open up their game a LOT once the blinds are 250-500. Thirdly there are very good chances that the small stack's situation will change on the very next hand. (Meaning he will either be a normal stack or eliminated.)

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't have to defend yourself. I was just stating that it is an obvious call against an unknown player. Especially an unknown pp player.

[curtains]

My feel for the player is I don't know how hes going to play once the blinds become 250-500. My feel was that he's going to go allin a lot, thats for sure.

"You can't even get a feel for a player, but you're postulating the SS's future actions combined with the fact that the SB is going to try to steal from a player who wouldn't mind calling with a decent hand. Riiighttt...."

Is it really that hard to figure out that when the BB is pot committed next hand, that there might be a confrontation that could change the current situation?


Don't kid yourself; you did NOT take all of this into account before making the call. YOu looked at your hand, saw A9s, said "my, this is a fine hand", and called." You can't even get a feel for a player, but you're postulating the SS's future actions combined with the fact that the SB is going to try to steal from a player who wouldn't mind calling with a decent hand. Riiighttt....

[Seadood228]

Acting like I'm an idiot because I don't know if hes a tight player after 7 rounds is stupid."

True. Plus you might not know if he's has tight raising standards, calling standards, or both. Nobody should try to make you feel like an idiot, but then again that seems to be the attitude around here.

"Tight has a much different meaning at the end of a tournament. Will he call in the BB with A7s if I move allin on the button? I have no freaking idea. He seemed reasonably aggressive preflop however."

Very True.

"I think that Im definitely a favorite more often than I'm a dog,"

I do too, just not by much.

"and I'm not going to be able to just pick up everyone's blind as easily as people are making it out to be."

I disagree here, but then again I don't play with the big boys.. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[curtains]

"You were in level 8 and hadn't noticed he was a tight player? You definitely made the right play by calling then. "

I'm not supposed to defend myself after that comment? btw it was obvious that he's relatively tight, but that doesn't mean I know how hes going to behave once the blinds are so high and its 3 handed. It's been 3 handed for a few hands, and was 6 handed just a few hands before. I may seem extremely tight early in a tournament, but obviously I'm going to play a lot of hands later on with high blinds. Even if I felt they were tight, this wouldn't change the way I play the hand.
Anyway it's no big deal, it's just funny that you would expect someone not to defend themselves after you are obviously insulting them.

[Gigabet]

[ QUOTE ]
Also since everyone seems to be placing the absolute premium on everyone's image, it can't hurt to call and let people know that I'm going to call in those situations if I think I'm ahead. I don't want to be folding 90+% of my hands there. If you really think that Im going to fold hands like A9s + stronger even, it must be correct to push with any 2 cards as the SB.



[/ QUOTE ]

First off, no one cares about your calling standards at this stage of the game, and second, yes, with the blinds as high as they are, it is almost correct to push with any two, especially knowing that you are a good big stack player who would want this situation to last awhile, so wouldn't be as likely to call.

Who cares if they take your blind? You have 5k in chips and alot more long term fold equity than they do. So why not use as much of it as possible and trim their stacks down as low as they will allow them to go. Which is what will happen, because your blind will not be stolen every single time, but you can steal theirs forever. The difference is, rojo would usually be making a mistake by calling your pushes(if you make an icm of the situation, then you can see that rojos calling standards have to be alot higher than yours), you will almost never be making a serious mistake by calling their pushes.

Granted, if the players don't know this, then it is a mistake on both players parts, however, even if rojo doesn't know the math behind it, I think he understands it intuitively, as most long term stt players do.

[Gigabet]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not supposed to defend myself after that comment? btw it was obvious that he's relatively tight, but that doesn't mean I know how hes going to behave once the blinds are so high and its 3 handed. It's been 3 handed for a few hands, and was 6 handed just a few hands before. I may seem extremely tight early in a tournament, but obviously I'm going to play a lot of hands later on with high blinds. Even if I felt they were tight, this wouldn't change the way I play the hand.
Anyway it's no big deal, it's just funny that you would expect someone not to defend themselves after you are obviously insulting them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't ever insult people, not intentionally anyway. I was just trying to make it obvious that if you didn't know how he played by level 8, then you should pay more attention to the game. If you don't feel like paying more attention to the game, then calling with A9 is absolutely the right move.

Others who have read the above post may have read it as offensive, but you shouldn't have. Because it is the truth, plain and simple, and you know that, you are the one playing.

If you feel insulted, I certainly apologize, not my intentions.

[curtains]

"First off, no one cares about your calling standards at this stage of the game, and second, yes, with the blinds as high as they are, it is almost correct to push with any two, especially knowing that you are a good big stack player who would want this situation to last awhile, so wouldn't be as likely to call. "

How can you say that no one cares about my calling standards, but you follow it up by saying that it's almost correct to move allin with any 2, if they know I'm the kind of big stack player that would fold most of the time. You make a strong statement with your opening sentence and then immediately provide evidence against it.
Secondly, there is a good chance the smaller stack will either be gone, or doubled up next hand.
Third I called because I felt my immediate EV advantage would outweigh any advantage I'd have by giving up this oppurtunity in return for later stealing possibilities. I don't think I have the kind of leverage that you think I have in this situation.
If you think you can steal the blinds with such ease, then folding may be correct, I just don't think it's going to be that simple here.

[curtains]

"If you feel insulted, I certainly apologize, not my intentions. "

Don't worry about it, I know I probably come off like a prick in 50% of the posts I make on here. Somehow the internet does that to one's words.


Goodnight, thanks for all the comments everyone

[lacky]

curtains,

I hope you come back and read gigabets comments when you are no longer emotionally involved. They presented a whole different way of looking at the situation that I think didn't really sink in. I know I have lots to think about from them.

Lacky

[Gigabet]

Bad use of pronouns, I meant pp as a whole doesn't care about your calling standards. I didn't think you were trying to make an image for that game in particular, considering that that call would end that situation for good in that particular game.

[Festis]

[ QUOTE ]
Who cares if they take your blind? You have 5k in chips and alot more long term fold equity than they do. So why not use as much of it as possible and trim their stacks down as low as they will allow them to go. Which is what will happen, because your blind will not be stolen every single time, but you can steal theirs forever. The difference is, rojo would usually be making a mistake by calling your pushes(if you make an icm of the situation, then you can see that rojos calling standards have to be alot higher than yours), you will almost never be making a serious mistake by calling their pushes.

Granted, if the players don't know this, then it is a mistake on both players parts

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you play against a player that call to much then?

[Gigabet]

[ QUOTE ]
How do you play against a player that call to much then?

[/ QUOTE ]

Players that call too much rarely make it to this level of blinds. They have either already busted out, or already won all of the chips. If you happen to be at this stage with a calling station, then you cannot push with any two....just wait until you have something good to push with, you only have to bust him one time.

With 5k in chips, I would be min raising with any ace, and then bet the rest of his chips on the flop. He will only hit the flop one out of 3 times, as long as he doesn't hit the first time, you will be able to cripple him in just a few rounds.

[jcm4ccc]

This is one of the most helpful threads I've ever read.

[1C5]

Giga, thanks for the responses, they all make a lot of sense. Even though I am only a low level $$ player, I am sure some of these ideas can be incorporated into any level of Party's games when the blinds become significant. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Gigabet]

[ QUOTE ]
This is one of the most helpful threads I've ever read.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see a sarcastic smiley face.

[AtticusFinch]

[ QUOTE ]

So Gigabet and the others, do you still fold without a read on the player? I don't think I could."

[/ QUOTE ]

Not that Giga needs my stamp of approval, but I'm with him. No read? Call. But against a tight player, why risk it? You'll easily steal all his chips in later rounds. Just wait until the next hand and push yourself.

[jcm4ccc]

[ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
This is one of the most helpful threads I've ever read.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see a sarcastic smiley face.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely serious. I had also typed "Thanks, Daliman and Gigabet," but I deleted it because it made me gag.

Here's what I was thinking at the beginning of the thread: "Marginal to good call"

Here's what I'm thinking now: "Easy fold."

In fact, I don't agree with calling if there is no read on the player (that seemed to be an offhand comment you made. I wonder if you were serious). It seems to me that the only raising hands you would want to be playing against would be A2 - A8. There are more AT - AK and pocket pairs (114 hands, I think, once you subtract one Ace and one nine) than there are A2 - A8 hands (96 hands, once you subtract one Ace). So the odds are good that you are against a hand you don't want to be against.

[AtticusFinch]

[ QUOTE ]

In fact, I don't agree with calling if there is no read on the player (that seemed to be an offhand comment you made. I wonder if you were serious). It seems to me that the only raising hands you would want to be playing against would be A2 - A8. There are more AT - AK and pocket pairs (114 hands, I think, once you subtract one Ace and one nine) than there are A2 - A8 hands (96 hands, once you subtract one Ace). So the odds are good that you are against a hand you don't want to be against.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think his remark was perfectly serious and I agree with it. At this level, the range of hands that will be pushed by most players is much wider than you indicate here, and A9s is well ahead of most of them.

I'd still fold against a tight player though.

[AtticusFinch]

[ QUOTE ]

I think that Im definitely a favorite more often than I'm a dog

[/ QUOTE ]

That still doesn't necessarily make the play +$EV. You have to consider how easy it will be to get his chips with your own steals later. Folding equity is so high against a tight player that it's just not worth it to call without a premium hand. I'd rather fold here, and push with any two cards the next time he's on the blinds. I'll wager the EV for that combination is way higher than for calling here.

[jcm4ccc]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

In fact, I don't agree with calling if there is no read on the player (that seemed to be an offhand comment you made. I wonder if you were serious). It seems to me that the only raising hands you would want to be playing against would be A2 - A8. There are more AT - AK and pocket pairs (114 hands, I think, once you subtract one Ace and one nine) than there are A2 - A8 hands (96 hands, once you subtract one Ace). So the odds are good that you are against a hand you don't want to be against.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think his remark was perfectly serious and I agree with it. At this level, the range of hands that will be pushed by most players is much wider than you indicate here, and A9s is well ahead of most of them.

I'd still fold against a tight player though.

[/ QUOTE ]

So the small stack has 1325 chips. The blinds are 500/1000. He is basically all-in on the next hand.

You are the medium stack, with 3035 chips. The big stack has 5640 chips. He could call any bet you make, lose, and still have 2640 chips. You really think "most players" are going to push a "wide range" of hands against the big stack. For instance, KQo? I think most players are much wimpier than that.

[AtticusFinch]

[ QUOTE ]

You are the medium stack, with 3035 chips. The big stack has 5640 chips. He could call any bet you make, lose, and still have 2640 chips. You really think "most players" are going to push a "wide range" of hands against the big stack. For instance, KQo? I think most players are much wimpier than that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good points, and probably true at earlier levels, but with the blinds this high, people become more and more anxious to push.

I've actually argued your side of this at the 55s where I play. I'm still somewhat on the fence there, although I'd still probably call with this hand. (In an earlier thread I argued for folding KT). But at the 200s, from what I've been told, most people's pushing range is much wider, here. Assuming that's correct, this is an easy call by default, but it can still be overruled by a read.

-AF

[kevstreet]

Any other low level SnG players wish once in a while there was this much thought placed on calling standards on $22-$33 tables? Just this morning in a $33 SnG I pushed on the button (on the bubble) w/ AJs and the BB called w/ K9o and spiked a K and took me out. The remaining four players were all about equal in chips prior to this play, wish he would have read this!!!

[AtticusFinch]

[ QUOTE ]
I pushed on the button (on the bubble) w/ AJs and the BB called w/ K9o and spiked a K and took me out. The remaining four players were all about equal in chips prior to this play, wish he would have read this!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? You love to be called by K9 here. You have a 64% chance of doubling up. Don't let one bad result change your perspective.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

In fact, I don't agree with calling if there is no read on the player (that seemed to be an offhand comment you made. I wonder if you were serious). It seems to me that the only raising hands you would want to be playing against would be A2 - A8. There are more AT - AK and pocket pairs (114 hands, I think, once you subtract one Ace and one nine) than there are A2 - A8 hands (96 hands, once you subtract one Ace). So the odds are good that you are against a hand you don't want to be against.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think his remark was perfectly serious and I agree with it. At this level, the range of hands that will be pushed by most players is much wider than you indicate here, and A9s is well ahead of most of them.

I'd still fold against a tight player though.

[/ QUOTE ]

So the small stack has 1325 chips. The blinds are 500/1000. He is basically all-in on the next hand.

You are the medium stack, with 3035 chips. The big stack has 5640 chips. He could call any bet you make, lose, and still have 2640 chips. You really think "most players" are going to push a "wide range" of hands against the big stack. For instance, KQo? I think most players are much wimpier than that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Blinds are 250/500, not 500/1000.

[kevstreet]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why? You love to be called by K9 here. You have a 64% chance of doubling up. Don't let one bad result change your perspective.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks AF,

I'm running a little rough right now and questioning my play. I was also caught by a premium hand in the BB while I was pushing from the button and the guy commented "dummy, I was sick of you playing like that!" I'm not sure if results are as streaky for (you) big time players but I'm struggling right now and your encouragement certainly doesn't hurt.

Anyway, this thread is a great read. Love all the insightful suggestions and opinions.

[ZeeJustin]

Rojosox is at least a decent winning player. That is a very general description that describes a large % of players. In this group, I can't imagine a player tight enough to make a fold correct here. I consider this to be an easy automatic call.

[DonButtons]

I think this is a bad call in the long run given stack sizes.

Like others said, at this stage, stealing is better than calling with such lil' edges, as you can steal from him from the button and he cant call with short stack on the sb.

[curtains]

No one seems to ever respond to the fact that the shortstack's situation will likely change the very next hand when they are BB.

[AtticusFinch]

[ QUOTE ]

I'm running a little rough right now and questioning my play.


[/ QUOTE ]

Questioning your play is good, so long as it's objective and not emotionally driven. And follow Mike Caro's advice. Question your play when you're winning, too.

[ QUOTE ]

I was also caught by a premium hand in the BB while I was pushing from the button and the guy commented "dummy, I was sick of you playing like that!"


[/ QUOTE ]

You should be happy about this, too. It's one more fish out there who is ignorant of correct short-stack play. The more of those guys the better. Let him think you're a fish. It only makes it easier to nail him next time.

[ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure if results are as streaky for (you) big time players but I'm struggling right now and your encouragement certainly doesn't hurt.


[/ QUOTE ]

Hah well I'd hardly call myself a bigtime player, but I can assure you that results are streaky for every single player out there, including the best in the world. Take heart, and keep reading this forum.

[AtticusFinch]

[ QUOTE ]

No one seems to ever respond to the fact that the shortstack's situation will likely change the very next hand when they are BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is one of those infinite regression problems. You know that the shortstack is probably all-in next hand (if he has any sense), and pusher knows that you know it, and you know that pusher knows that you know it, etc. etc.

There are 2 main points to make about this. 1) The short stack could just as easily double up as bust out next hand 2) Winning this push gives you a virtual lock on first, while if you lose it, you're still highly favored to get second, and might still win. If you fold, the results are much more up in the air.

[adanthar]

Stack sizes are like 105% of the problem here and are the primary reason you fold.

Having said that, if I were in the actual situation I'd have said 'ooh pretty' and thought about calling and then looked at the name that was pushing with a short stack and thought 'nope, fold'. I don't reason it out THAT quickly.

[UMTerp]

To inject a little math into the discussion here:

Using an ICM Calculator:

If you call and win
8675 - YOU
1325
<font color="red">Equity = 47.35% of prize pool</font>

If you call and lose
2605 - YOU
1325
6070
<font color="red">Equity = 32.23% of prize pool</font>

If you fold
5140 - YOU
1325
3535
<font color="red">Equity = 39.02% of prize pool</font>

So for this decision to be EV-neutral, you'd need to win the hand X amount of the time, where:

<font color="blue">(0.4735)(X) + (0.3223)(1-X) = 0.3902

X = 0.4491</font>

If you think you'll win 45% of the time you call, it's a good call. I think this is the case here.

Of course, this does ignore the additional folding equity you have from remaining the big stack, but as one player gets increasingly short, I think this effect diminishes, since he's calling you with virtually anything next time you push. And heads-up, the effect disappears completely.

This result actually surprises me, and intuitively, I'd have probably leaned toward a fold to protect my stack. I don't think too many of us will argue that the hero here will win at lesat 45% of the time given the range of hands the opponent pushes with here, especially since that range includes QJ.

Looks like a call to me.

[AtticusFinch]

Thanks for finally pulling the trigger for us lazy folds and giving us the numbers.

[ QUOTE ]

If you think you'll win 45% of the time you call, it's a good call. I think this is the case here.


[/ QUOTE ]

In most cases, yes. Against a tight player, not necessarily. Against this guy in particular, from what I've heard, no way.

[willie24]

there's an argument about this? this would be a terrible fold.

[willie24]

[ QUOTE ]
Somehow the rest of us 4+tablers,(at LEAST 4 in this thread alone..) manage to play more than nuts and bolts poker, using reads, profiles, and possibly even a tell or 2.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, yer gambit play is SERIOUSLY sub-optimal overall.

[/ QUOTE ]

in spite of your arrogance, you are very wrong here and are giving very poor advice.

a player who folds this is giving up significant money. there's really no way to prove it when you make the assumption that folding preserves your stealing ability to a degree that is more significant than the huge amount of chips you gain here on average.

your opposition would have to be horribly weak for folding to be even close.

[willie24]

[ QUOTE ]
Poster: Gigabet
Subject: Re: argument with PokerDali


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How do you play against a player that call to much then?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Players that call too much rarely make it to this level of blinds. They have either already busted out, or already won all of the chips. If you happen to be at this stage with a calling station, then you cannot push with any two....just wait until you have something good to push with, you only have to bust him one time.

With 5k in chips, I would be min raising with any ace, and then bet the rest of his chips on the flop. He will only hit the flop one out of 3 times, as long as he doesn't hit the first time, you will be able to cripple him in just a few rounds.



[/ QUOTE ]

it is very hard to call too much once you get to this point. (he was talking about calling pushes, not calling miniraises- but at this point they are basically the same thing - miniraises pot-commit both players...)

you severely overlook the fact that most good $200 players understand SNGs well enough to be very tight early, and at the same time, very loose when the BB is 500.

a guy being loose 3-handed has zero positive correlation with him being loose 9 handed. actually, it may have negative correlation.

i am unfamiliar with the ICM, but if it shows that calling is wrong 3-handed, even when you have huge chip EV advantage, it must be fataly flawed to the point of being useless.

i will look into it.

[curtains]

Thank you willie24 whomever you are

[DCJ311]

This is pretty much the easiest call I've ever seen. Ok not really, but you'd have to be pretty bad at sit and go's (and/or math) to fold here.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
This is pretty much the easiest call I've ever seen. Ok not really, but you'd have to be pretty bad at sit and go's (and/or math) to fold here.

[/ QUOTE ]

TY for your comments. I guess Gigabet and I have been kidding ourselves.

[asofel]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is pretty much the easiest call I've ever seen. Ok not really, but you'd have to be pretty bad at sit and go's (and/or math) to fold here.

[/ QUOTE ]

TY for your comments. I guess Gigabet and I have been kidding ourselves.

[/ QUOTE ]

we all know its just been a really really long run of good cards for you two...

[curtains]

Using your past results to show that your opinion is correct isn't the best argument. There are quite a few people who felt that folding is a clear mistake who also have performed very well in $215+ sit and gos throughout time.
Although I do agree that folding doesn't automatically mean you are going to lose at sit and gos!

[Seadood228]

It's funny how the best 215ers are split between "automatic-fold" and "Automatic call." You're not seeing too many "it's close, but..." answers.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]

Using your past results to show that your opinion is correct isn't the best argument. There are quite a few people who felt that folding is a clear mistake who also have performed very well in $215+ sit and gos throughout time.
Although I do agree that folding doesn't automatically mean you are going to lose at sit and gos!

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not using my past results to say my opinion is right. I was simply commenting on this moronic statement;
[ QUOTE ]
but you'd have to be pretty bad at sit and go's (and/or math) to fold here.


[/ QUOTE ]

and I'm sure Gig would agree with me here.

Amazing that you can be an IM yet still have the reading comprehension of a 12 y/o.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
It's funny how the best 215ers are split between "automatic-fold" and "Automatic call." You're not seeing too many "it's close, but..." answers.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never said it was an automatic fold. Curtains DID say that it's an automatic call. I personally think it is VERY close, but not as close against a player like Rojosox.

[curtains]

I know you didn't say that, hence my second sentence. I just wanted to clear that up for everoyne else. A lot of people on twoplustwo are swayed very easily by the reputation that they attach to a few select players.
There are a lot of people who win on here, some of whom win despite having weaknesses in some areas, as you really don't need to play perfectly to do well.
Personally I believe I am absolutely right that it's a clear cut call, against practically EVERYONE. Obviously not everyone agrees, and some of those disagreeing I know are extremely strong poker players. This should just show people that poker is not an easy game, and decisions so simple as to whether to call this all-in can cause huge and varied disagreements among top players. Players reading the forum should not decide that one answer is right based on whom is giving the opinion, yet I can tell by a lot of the responses and by a lot of the people that "switched sides" that they are overly influenced.

[Gigabet]

[ QUOTE ]
Amazing that you can be an IM yet still have the reading comprehension of a 12 y/o.

[/ QUOTE ]

IM as in International Master?

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Amazing that you can be an IM yet still have the reading comprehension of a 12 y/o.

[/ QUOTE ]

IM as in International Master?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep.

Curtains, for all his goofiness, is one of the top 50(?) chess players in the United States. Scary, huh?

His sis is WAY better tho
/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[curtains]

I AM THE CHAMPION!#^^!^@&amp;^

I was once 37th in US, but Im no longer on the official top 50 list. But chess is rigged, if I had better luck I'd be top 10 easily.

[AtticusFinch]

[ QUOTE ]

I AM THE CHAMPION!#^^!^@&amp;^

I was once 37th in US, but Im no longer on the official top 50 list. But chess is rigged, if I had better luck I'd be top 10 easily.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why, did someone suck out and stalemate you?

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]

I know you didn't say that, hence my second sentence. I just wanted to clear that up for everoyne else. A lot of people on twoplustwo are swayed very easily by the reputation that they attach to a few select players.
There are a lot of people who win on here, some of whom win despite having weaknesses in some areas, as you really don't need to play perfectly to do well.
Personally I believe I am absolutely right that it's a clear cut call, against practically EVERYONE. Obviously not everyone agrees, and some of those disagreeing I know are extremely strong poker players. This should just show people that poker is not an easy game, and decisions so simple as to whether to call this all-in can cause huge and varied disagreements among top players. Players reading the forum should not decide that one answer is right based on whom is giving the opinion, yet I can tell by a lot of the responses and by a lot of the people that "switched sides" that they are overly influenced.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well said. I think people should use respected posters responses for inight into the/their game, not as the absolute answer. The more thinking, the better. Just because two people make the same move, if it is for different reasons, it canmake all the difference in the world as to whether it is a good play or a bad play.

If you look at this hand and automatically say, "I have A9s, , it's is very pretty, therefore, I call", that is incomplete usage of the info at hand.

[AtticusFinch]

[ QUOTE ]

If you look at this hand and automatically say, "I have A9s, , it's is very pretty, therefore, I call", that is incomplete usage of the info at hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Put another way, the discussion of all the issues to think about is far more important than the outcome in this particular case.

[curtains]

but A9s is realllllly pretty....it was diamonds too.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
But chess is rigged

[/ QUOTE ]

Now I have heard it all. I'm glad we ended this debate on this note. It pretty much sums it up for me.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]

His sis is WAY better tho


[/ QUOTE ]

If he was top 50 at some point then I doubt your statement is true and can only be a joke. I'm too lazy to figure out if the couple of female players I'm not familiar with have strong brothers.

Yugoslav

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But chess is rigged

[/ QUOTE ]

Now I have heard it all. I'm glad we ended this debate on this note. It pretty much sums it up for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

You obviously haven't played chess against Russians have you? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Yugoslav

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

His sis is WAY better tho


[/ QUOTE ]

If he was top 50 at some point then I doubt your statement is true and can only be a joke. I'm too lazy to figure out if the couple of female players I'm not familiar with have strong brothers.

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

His sister is 2 time US champion. He has NEVER been US champion. E.G. His sis pwn3s him /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]

His sister is 2 time US champion. He has NEVER been US champion. E.G. His sis pwn3s him /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Hehehe. Okay, but I'm sure he's still better as his sister was US Womens Champion and not outright US Champion.

Hmmm. I should now know who curtains is but oddly enough I don't. Oh well.

Yugoslav

[shaniac]

Despite that everything has been covered to a complete and thorough degree by players much smarter and better at analyzing situations than I am and who play more Party SnGs than I do, I will add my own opinion anyway: call, you have to call.

I really liked Gigabet's analysis but it doesn't convince me that a fold is, on balance, correct (I believe he said that anyone who calls here should be tarred and feathered, but don't recall the exact phrasing off the top of my head).

Curtains will still have 2600 if he loses, reasonable equity for steals when he gets the button and (as even curtains himself seems to toally disregard) the SS is on the verge of either busting out or becoming a real prescence in the game anyway--you really need a premium hand to call here?

If Ad9d beats his opponent's range more than the elsewhere-mentioned 45% of the time, it's an obvious call since he will coast into first place money aprox. 150% of the time he wins the hand and still be in not-terrible shape when he loses. Not sure about the math.

Consider curtains' own image--he's a straight-up tight-ass. Ask anyone. RoJo knows this and might not give curtains credit for being able to make a call with a hand as vulnerable as A9s, thereby opening up his stealing range. You gotta call.

Shane

[DCJ311]

Daliman,

I think that by now it should be obvious that I am clearly superior to you in the areas of hand analysis and sit and go proficiency. Trying to elaborate myself further on this topic to you would be tantamount to attemping to teach quantum physics to a circus monkey.

[Mammux]

Chess Family (http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian/issues03/aug03/images/chess_family_jpg.html)

-Magnus

[kevstreet]

[ QUOTE ]
Chess Family (http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian/issues03/aug03/images/chess_family_jpg.html)



[/ QUOTE ]


Chess Champion? $200 SnGs? And you and your sister look like models! What gives!? Any chance you also play Mozart concertos on the piano?

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Chess Family (http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian/issues03/aug03/images/chess_family_jpg.html)



[/ QUOTE ]


Chess Champion? $200 SnGs? And you and your sister look like models! What gives!? Any chance you also play Mozart concertos on the piano?

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh no. Now I'll NEVER hear the end of it...

[kevstreet]

[ QUOTE ]

Oh no. Now I'll NEVER hear the end of it...

[/ QUOTE ]

Laugh out loud. Don't worry Dali, I still heed your advice over Curtains' in poker play. However, he has some impressive intangibles, most notably his sister... with all due respect Curtains.

[freemont]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Chess Family (http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian/issues03/aug03/images/chess_family_jpg.html)



[/ QUOTE ]


Chess Champion? $200 SnGs? And you and your sister look like models! What gives!? Any chance you also play Mozart concertos on the piano?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, but back in 2000 he did win a very difficult fantasy basketball league! Though some have accused him of not playing fair....

[Scuba Chuck]

So now Fantasy Basketball is rigged too?

The end of the world is near.

[rohjoh]

[ QUOTE ]

but A9s is realllllly pretty....it was diamonds too.

[/ QUOTE ]

If it were spades then I could see calling, but diamonds, what were you thinking?

[curtains]

Hi, I use 4 color deck and blue is my favorite color. On 2 color deck I agree, clear fold.

[curtains]

btw everyone watch out, my sister has just graduated from the $5 sit and gos and is ready to dominate the $10s.

[The Yugoslavian]

So much for me becoming the ZJ of the $11s.

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Yugoslav
And yes, I had to make this post just to get a rare flame goin' in the otherwise icey cold SNG forum...looks like I have a better shot at becoming the TSC of the forum than ZJ of the $11s....

[curtains]

It's ok, I'll have her move up when she's ready, which should be relatively quickly, as I think shes already top 10-20% of $11 sit and go players. Im sure you are likely playing lower than necessary at the $11s.

[aeakos]

Speaking of Chess, can you recommend some good books?

[GtrHtr]

fold after the flop. A9 suited is only good for a flush draw in most (not all) situations. To prove my point, you only had middle pair not top. Furthermore, if an ace comes on the board and you are holding Ax suited and the other players are betting out...you can assume that you do have top pair but your kicker is worthless... unless that kicker is paired as well. dump it after the flop.