legality etc.

[ier]

This is no doubt a FAQ somewhere although I didn't see it listed here. The gambling laws in the US strike me as inelegant to say the least, and internet gambling law (or lack thereof) is totally asinine. I cannot figure it out, so maybe someone can point me in the right direction. There are places like youbet.com where you can bet on racing, legally as I understand, from a legally-operating US company. But many other sports betting operations OUTSIDE the US are actually illegal? Why is horse racing so different from basketball? I'm a little lost here. (I know betting on racing is an old tradition and you can do it at the track, but...)

I see these warning articles that say to be careful of online gambling because the legality hasn't been clarified yet. Well, if the legality hasn't been clarified, that must mean it's legal, right? How can ANY action whose legality has not been clarified (for quite some time, I might add) be illegal? If the legality of roping wild horses in your backyard has not been clarified, it has to be legal, doesn't it? How can a person be convicted of a crime no legal expert on the planet knew was a crime when the person committed it?

As a practical matter, the government has better things to do than go after most online gamblers, so I'd think that most online gamblers have little to worry about. Then again, the police have better things to do than give people tickets for going 60 in a 55 yet you see it once in awhile.

Can someone point me to a summary? I'm particularly curious about the legality of sports gambling. Is there a place to do it legally? If not, is any method any more or less legal (or more or less legally ambiguous) than any other? I'm not as concerned about whether the companies are legal; they can take care of themselves. If there's nothing that's specifically legal, does the government look the other way more so with certain operations than others?

I'm not a libertarian, but when it comes to the spaghetti gambling laws in this country, I seriously question whether the government is acting in the common good or (at least at times) just making rules for the sake of making rules.

p.s. The Justice Department apparently likes to cite the Wire Act. As I understand it, this is a stretch. The Wire Act was written to make it illegal to take bets over a phone line, as I understand it. It was obviously written to apply to voice phone, not internet. But does the Justice Department even realize that you need not use a phone at all to connect to the internet? These operations are not run off of dial-up internet. They use T1 lines or something sophisticated like that. Some of the people who place bets use cable connections, etc. Is the government completely full of %*@# on this one, or is there something to that? I'm just curious, because I've never seen so much total and utter BS in my life. This is one unattractive legal snarle.

[Cubswin]

Lots of questions but i dont have lots of time so ill just answer the ones i want... /images/graemlins/grin.gif


I'm particularly curious about the legality of sports gambling. Is there a place to do it legally?

You cant legally sportsbet online in the US. Sportsbetting is the only type of gambling that there are clear federal laws covering its illegality (the Wire Act). Will you ever be prosecuted for placing sportsbets online? Not likely. The Wire Act has largely been used to go after bookies and organized crime and e-gaming operators. No e-gaming bettor has ever had charges brought on them for placing a bet.

Can someone point me to a summary?

This (http://www.gambling-law-us.com/) might interest you.


I'm not a libertarian, but when it comes to the spaghetti gambling laws in this country, I seriously question whether the government is acting in the common good or (at least at times) just making rules for the sake of making rules.

This problem is not unique to gambling laws. The piece-meal aspects of many laws in this country is the product of the federal nature of our government. States have jurisdiction with most gambling issues but the federal government will occassionally enact laws too if there is a need for them. The Wire Act was seen by the federal government as a necessary piece of legislation back in the 60s when organized crime had a strangle-hold on vegas.

p.s. The Justice Department apparently likes to cite the Wire Act. As I understand it, this is a stretch. The Wire Act was written to make it illegal to take bets over a phone line, as I understand it. It was obviously written to apply to voice phone, not internet. But does the Justice Department even realize that you need not use a phone at all to connect to the internet? These operations are not run off of dial-up internet. They use T1 lines or something sophisticated like that. Some of the people who place bets use cable connections, etc. Is the government completely full of %*@# on this one, or is there something to that? I'm just curious, because I've never seen so much total and utter BS in my life. This is one unattractive legal snarle.

The Wire Act was written in a way that it covers the internet today. It covers not only telephone but also other forms on 'wire' communication... including the internet. Federal courts have found that the wire act only covers sportsbetting.... it doesnt apply to internet poker of even internet casinos.


Ill prolly write some more later when i have more time... but i hope this answers at least a few questions

[Zetack]

In regards to the wire act, as noted above, there's apparently some case law that retricts this to sports betting, not poker or other online casino games. I haven't looked at the cases myself, and don't know which courts have issued those rulings and how wide their applicability is so I can't affirmatively say you're safe under the wire act with other kinds of gambling but that seems to be the general feeling.

There are some other federal acts that could apply but apparently they are based on a violation of state law to kick in. And whether State law can prohibit internet gambling at all is an open question--where does the gambling take place being an undecided question. If so whether any states have laws that are written so as to actually prohibit internet gambling I just couldn't say.

Bottom line, though, if poker is clearly legal in your state it looks like you can play it on line legally despite the noises the justice department makes to the contrary. But this ain't legal advice so consult an attorney if you're really concerned.

In response to the other concern--if its a murky area where you are, the answer is no, that won't be a defense to you in a criminal prosecution if a court determines after you are charged that it is against the law. Tough, but there you go.

--Zetack

[ier]

Thanks a lot for the replies. Some good insights.

How is that we live in a free country, yet the government as we speak believes it's illegal for me to place a friendly $5 bet on a favorite sports team? (Maybe the term "free country" is overused, but given how much Bush likes to use the word "freedom" I think it's fair to use it.) I'm not a fan of legislation that unnecessarily limits the rights of regular people to enjoy themselves. If I'm in the UK or in Vegas, I'm a beacon of morality -- just putting a little money into the tourist industry -- but if I do it in Iowa, I'm a slimeball. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif /images/graemlins/cool.gif

It's true a lot of US law looks like spaghetti compared to law in other countries. And that's to be expected with the feds, the states, and the local governments all fighting but gambling law is about as bad as it gets. One type of sports betting is legal online, another isn't. It's legal to gamble in Nevada, but cross the border to Arizona and you can't. You can gamble on Indian reservations, but cross the border to a Native American community outside the reservation and you can't. (And the reasoning some use is that it's immoral? So it's moral to encourage gambling in places where people are already low-income and suffer disproportionately from alcoholism, but not elsewhere!?)

The government shuts down online casino operations in the US, but it's not entirely clear that if those operations weren't shut down, it would be illegal for a citizen to place bets with them. If it is, it may be legal to bet on horseracing, illegal to bet on car racing, and ambigious as to whether it's legal to bet on casino games? I honestly don't know if I even have the categories close to right, but since this is law that affects Joe Sixpack, doesn't the government have an obligation to clarify? The government can't decide that the speed limit on Oak Avenue is 5 mph and not put up a speed limit sign. They can't count on every Joe Sixpack to be a legal expert or sit in on town council meetings. The government has screwed this one up big time, and I think they may be too skittish to resolve the mess they've made.

Let me say this again. There is a PERFECTLY LEGAL online horse betting operation out of California. (It's the "official online wagering platform" of the Kentucky Derby for Christ's sake. The Derby is as American as apple pie.) Yet the government thinks it's illegal for international online sports betting places in Antigua or wherever to operate? One of those places actually won a recent ruling with the WTO; the line of thinking is that the US CANNOT go after these operations or those who participate because it would be in violation of international trade law! I.e. the US government has on obligation to allow its citizens to pour their money into these operations, just like citizens around the world pour their money into our B-grade action movies or whatever. (I guess the US government would rather people blow their money on lotto tickets or day-trading, or apparently horse race betting. Because as we know, all of that is FAR MORE MORAL than the other stuff. Just good logic! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif )

This is very simple. This is an activity that a lot of people wish to do. Therefore the government has an obligation to EITHER make it very clear what is legal or what is not, OR not go after people, PERIOD. If they do anything else, they are WAY OUT OF BOUNDS.

I haven't fully looked at that link yet, though I will. Here are a few other things I found that I think are interesting.

From a respected online betting place (out in the middle of the Pacific somewhere I think /images/graemlins/smile.gif ) called VIP:

[ QUOTE ]
Is gambling legal over the Internet?

It is widely recognized that Internet gaming is an international issue. Some experts agree that even if anti-gaming nations pass laws against Internet gaming, the international character of the Internet makes it impossible to police on a global scale. Currently, users in the US, for example, may be deterred from wagering due to potential violations of 18 US Code 1084. It is best to contact your local or federal authorities regarding legality in specific jurisdictions.

If I am in the United States, what, if any, legal ramifications are there?

One federal law having possible impact is 18 US Code 1084. It was enacted to discourage sports books from conducting business in the US, not to prosecute the consumer. This fact was recognized in one case, in which the government prosecuted a person placing bets with a sports book. The judge took the purpose of the law into account and held against the prosecutor because the bettor was not involved in the "sale of a product or service for a fee involving third parties," i.e., customers and clients.

[/ QUOTE ]

An excerpt from another website (Shannon Dorey):

[ QUOTE ]
David Schepp of the BBC reported in February [2003] that online gambling had become the fifth largest advertiser online, jumping to 2.5 billion from 910 million ads last year. "Online gambling firms are now advertising on more mainstream sites, thus appealing to whole new groups of gambling enthusiasts."

He interviewed Charles Buchwalter, head of media research at Jupiter Media Metrix who said that, "Online casinos are now competing for advertising with the most visible industries, including retail, financial services and travel…The fact that casinos are [moving] their ad-buys from niche sites to mainstream portals is proof that this sector is going mainstream," Buchwalter says.

Those "mainstream portals" include sites like Yahoo! and Excite."

Since most of these offshore gambling sites are out of the reach of US authorities and are legal in the countries where they exist, there is really little US authorities can do to stop them. Roy Mark of JupiterMedia.com reported in March that 60 percent of all offshore gambling dollars comes from Americans.

According to the Justice Department, Internet gambling is illegal for Americans. The courts have ruled that under the 1961 Wire Wager Act, which prohibits the use of phone lines for placing sports bets, Internet sports betting is illegal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mike Fish, Sports Illustrated online:

[ QUOTE ]

Some officials say it's against the law to wager over the Internet or telephone. Others say the illegal part is the gambling operation itself, if it's set up on U.S. soil -- which is why Web sites operate offshore in places such as the Caribbean, Latin America and Australia. And still others say it's not worth debating because the government has larger fish to fry, plus gambling cases are unpopular to prosecute and often ignored unless it's serious, illegal, mob-type stuff.

"In terms of legislation that has gone through either state or federal houses that has told players specifically you can't do it, there really isn't anything on the books,'' offered Sue Schneider, publisher of Interactive Gaming News. "So this industry is a lawyer's dream, because there is no clarity on the law.''

...This is a boom business. Back in 1997, when I spent a few days checking out the Internet gambling sites on the island of Antigua, it was estimated to be a $200 million a year industry. Now [in 2003] I'm told revenues top $1 billion annually, or about 10 times the amount the glitzy Nevada sports books make.

Antigua remains a player, but 75 governments around the world license Internet gambling. Today there are more than 1,800 online gambling sites.

...If [Sen. John Kyl's new] bill becomes law, it would essentially hit Internet gambling by choking off the money supply -- making it illegal to write a check or use a credit card or any other form of payment in gambling online. Provisions in the bill would have bank regulators use their enforcement powers to go after the banks to stop payments from going to the cyber casinos.

So, getting back to our fearless sports talker, is online gambling legal this bowl season? Can't say for sure, but it may never again be so easy.

[/ QUOTE ]

I realize our government has more important things to do, but that rarely stops them from messing around. While they should have been talking about terrorism, they were busy changing the name of french fries in their cafeteria to "freedom fries" (making them look like absolute morons on the world stage, just what we need). While they should have been thinking about the two wars we're waging, they were debating a marriage amendment that is redundant and had no chance to pass whatsoever (yes, there was an election to win, but please, people...).

Anyway, thanks for the info. The US government is probably never going to thrill me, but can't they at least put together the bare minimum -- if they aren't going DO THINGS RIGHT, shouldn't they at least CLARIFY WHERE THEY STAND ON WHAT THEY HAVEN'T DONE??? /images/graemlins/laugh.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Thanks again for the responses!

p.s. Also note that some of the people who want to restrict gambling even more in the US on a national level are the same guys who preach states' rights. These are some of the same guys who backed the national marriage amendment which would also limit states' rights. I guess this is just the mess of a government in which we find ourselves.


quotes:
http://community.lawyers.com/messageboards/message.asp?channelId=&subId=&mId=588361&mbId=43
http://www.the-surfs-up.com/news/gamblingonlinenews.html
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2003/writers/mike_fish/12/26/internet.gambling/

[stillnotking]

The ball is pretty much in Congress' court right now. Several influential lobby groups (e.g. the Christian Coalition) are pushing for a crackdown on online gambling. Luckily, Congress has many more important things on its plate right now.

It's unclear what form an anti-internet-gambling law would take. Like online pornography, it is legally and technically troublesome to restrict. Ban ISPs from connecting to certain sites? The ACLU would take issue, and new sites would just spring up overnight anyway. Forbid banks/credit card companies from processing gambling-related transactions? Sure, but there are banks outside the US that would be happy for the business, and besides the casinos would just get craftier about disguising/laundering such transactions.

Here's a C:Net post that might be of interest.

http://news.com.com/Place+a+bet.+Now+go+to+jail/2008-1028_3-5563856.html