why is it that i can kill live games but lose online

[Cory Neely]

when i play live i play 4/8-10/20 and i can kill the games for around 4-5 bb an hour. when i play online i lose that much. i would like to play online and win like i do in person but cant. anyone else have this problem? any thoughts?

[lehighguy]

1) Online is harder then live.
2) What is your sample size life, its probably way to small. You shouldn't be able to win more then 1BB/hour live over the long run.
3) You can't use reads online. After all, the fact that my friend in my home game has a tell whenever he hits a flush sure helps my winrate.

[lehighguy]

P.S.
2) Assumes standard casino rake, you could win a lot more in a home game.

[tylerdurden]

[ QUOTE ]
You shouldn't be able to win more then 1BB/hour live over the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? 1BB/hour is "respectable" but certainly isn't some theoretical long-term barrier.

[Michael Davis]

In games lower than 10-20 you can make 1 bb/hour just by being fairly decent.

The most likely answer is simply that online games are much tougher than live games. Other possible answers include online tilting or an inability to deal with the speed of the game (these are related).

-Michael

[David Steele]

Assuming you don't have too much experience yet, one reason is that playing online you usually play much faster.

The live play lets you take your time in coming up with your move, you automatically think while the play slowly goes around the table til your turn, but online you may be moving before you have really thought enough about what to do. You can fire off a bad call or a reraise online that you might not make if you had thought carefully. It can be a kind of video game rapid-fire metality.

With a little experience it is very easy to play at the faster rate and even multitable.


D.

[The13atman]

Like everyone else has said, online games are tougher. I don't know about the live games you play in, but the live 3-6 I've played is softer than the 0.5/1 on Party. Therefore, 10-20 live is probably really closer to 3-6 online in terms of difficulty and the skill of your opponents. Are you playing the same limits live as online? This could be the biggest fact I think. Just my 2 cents.

[Reef]

[ QUOTE ]
online games are

[/ QUOTE ]

more difficult

[stinkypete]

chances are it's because you're a losing player, and you've been lucky in your live games.

[Lawrence Ng]

[ QUOTE ]
when i play live i play 4/8-10/20 and i can kill the games for around 4-5 bb an hour.

[/ QUOTE ]

No one and I mean no one sustains a 4-5 BB/hr live rate in any game even if it was rake free.

Lawrence

[Lawrence Ng]

I am one of those who are like you that manages to do quite well in live limit games, but fairly poorly in my online limit game play. (NL seems to be working for me though online)

Yes, the equivalent online 10/20 is much tougher than the equivalent 10/20 live game.

I have a much better feel in live games I suppose as there always certain tells combined with betting patterns that really help me make a marginal raise/fold/call as opposed to online where it really boils down to numbers.

Lawrence

[Michael Davis]

I think this was edited in, but I also read fast and tend to miss really important things.

[ QUOTE ]

when i play live i play 4/8-10/20 and i can kill the games for around 4-5 bb an hour.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is really obvious why are you not winning online.

-Michael

[steamboatin]

How many live hours do you play a week?

A losing player can be significantly ahead after a year of playing a few hours a week of live poker and a winning player can be behind over the same period due to variance and standard deviation.

I believe that Internet games are harder to beat than live games but unless you have played a lot, your numbers probably have little significance.

Also many of your opponents in a live game have never read a poker book or spent anytime improving their game.


I had the same problem, I could hold my own, I wasn't crushing the live game, but I wasn't a complete fish either. I couldn't beat the Internet game. I suggesst you go sign up at Pacific poker and play the miro limits with their free ten dollars until you can beat that and only move up when you have built your account to 300 BB for the next level. Pacific players are terrible and if you can't beat their micro limits, you can't sustain your win rate at the live games either.

I quit Internet poker because I couldn't beat it at any level. I got $10 free from pacific poker and worked it up until I could move up in limits. I would cash out and redeposit elswhere. But I couldn't hold my own on the Internet until I played micro limits at pacific.

Everybody hates Pacific's software and their numerous disconnects but it is a good place to begin.

[SpeakEasy]

[ QUOTE ]
anyone else have this problem? any thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I had this problem last year. Did a complete re-evaluation of my game, and now have a solid winning on-line game as well as live game. Summarized:

1. Tighten up your starting hand requirements. You're tempted to play the junk on-line because others do. Don't fall to the temptation.

2. Learn to calculate pot odds quickly and correctly. No guessing. Chase only when getting the correct pot odds. Make mathematically correct decisions each and every time. Carefully re-evaluate the close calls after play has ended and ask yourself: "In this same exact situation, if I make the same play 1000 more times, would it be profitable?" None of this "I felt like the flush would hit" crap.

3. Each decision is a fresh and independent decision, even within the same hand. Recalculate the pot odds each time you are faced with a decision.

4. Learn to pay attention to the game. Its easier to be distracted when you're not sitting next to humans. Do you surf after you fold a hand?

5. Bluff less. Learn when to bluff. Don't feel frustrated when you fold to a bluff, if you made the correct decision.

6. Separate your emotions from your play.

7. Play position. Learn the wider range of hands that can be played in late position. Learn to fold when your hand doesn't hit.

8. Find your site and level. The play is different from site to site. You may be successful on one site but not on another site at the same levels. Play where you're successful.

9. Never forget that you are forever a student of poker, and can always learn more and get better.

10. When your feeling frustrated, tighten up your play. Play disciplined at all times. Loosening up to regain lost ground accelerates the downswings.

[SomethingClever]

[ QUOTE ]
when i play live i play 4/8-10/20 and i can kill the games for around 4-5 bb an hour. when i play online i lose that much. i would like to play online and win like i do in person but cant. anyone else have this problem? any thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you Jackpot Jay?

Seriously though, you're probably just not as good as you think you are. Don't play 5/10 or 10/20 online.

Start at .5/1 and see how it goes.

[QuadsOverQuads]

Speakeasy, that is a damn fine post. If it were up to me, I'd even add a couple more suggestions to it :

11. Learn table-selection. Just because you *should* (ideally) be able to adjust to any situation doesn't mean that you're actually there yet. Learn to tell the difference between the different table-types, and to be aware of where your results are better and where they are worse. If you find your current table is in the "worse" catagory, stand up and find another one. There's no shortage of tables to choose from online -- make the most of it.

12. Learn when to leave a table. Specifically, if you're getting frustrated, angry, despondent, fatalistic, etc, leave the table and take a break. Even when you think you can "play through it", you probably can't. Furthermore, even if you are managing somehow to play through your distress, your opponents will still expect you to play like you're on tilt, which will cause them to target you and play more aggressively against you. Bad situation. Walk away, shake it off, then find a better situation when you're back in the groove.


q/q

[BlueBear]

I believe you are over-estimating your playing abilities. 4 BB -5 BB is an unrealistic and unsustainable win rate.

[sfer]

1. Those games at Foxwoods are quite possibly the best games on Earth right now.

2. I'm willing to bet that plenty of live "winners" have surprisingly bad online results when they are forced to watch a fixed dollar account dwindle to nothing. That is, online play is brutal in its honesty and when the money is gone, it's gone, unlike having a wallet full of bills and an ATM card at a casino.

[Ogre]

I can beat online but I can't win at home games because it goes WAY TOO SLOW!

[SpeakEasy]

[ QUOTE ]
11. Learn table-selection. Just because you *should* (ideally) be able to adjust to any situation doesn't mean that you're actually there yet. Learn to tell the difference between the different table-types, and to be aware of where your results are better and where they are worse. If you find your current table is in the "worse" catagory, stand up and find another one. There's no shortage of tables to choose from online -- make the most of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent addition. I will typically sit down at a few tables, and within a short time I can tell which table will be profitable and which won't. There are always a variety of factors (my skills, table loose/tight, drunk players, whatever). I won't hesitate to leave the unprofitable table(s) and stay the profitable table(s).