Internet Cheating

Let me first say- the reason that i stopped posting a while ago- on this forum- were the basically constant meaningless threads on the 'online cardroom conspiracies'. Im not trying to rehash those debates. Whether paradise 'juices' their shuffle or not- is quite frankly- not only impossible to determine- but irrelevant to me (if anyone wants to know why its irrelevant- we can discuss it in another thread).


So- that all being said-- why do i want to bring this topic up again? Well- there's been an on-going war on RGP with respect to B&M cheating- over the past year or so. Most of the posters- even those on opposite sides of the issue- agree on one thing. Cheating was rampant in B&M casinos- at the onset of the introduction of poker- back in appx. the early 80s. Which brings me to this question:


Have we already gotten past those initial 'growing pains'- with respect to online cardrooms- or are we going to see more problems popping up- in the near to foreseeable future?


And- two related questions:

1. How would you know if anything was wrong? Those who were 'cheated' in B&Ms in the 80s didnt know.


2. Is this issue akin to me saying- "i dont care whether paradise juices its shuffle"? Should that be my feeling here too? Or is this a legitimately probative topic- that we should look to explore?

Honestly, i dont care much if its rigged or not or if theres some cheaters or whatever...


Ive started playing online poker in march by investing $50 on pokerstars because i really liked the graphics! Im now up 6500 playin low limits during my spare times. I rarely play 10-20 online coz i know cheating could hurt me. i didnt played wcoop major events coz i tought cheating could be very lucrative. By cheating, i dont mean collusion coz its tough to do in tournaments, but some computer cracks able to see my screen or anything that couls lead them to see what im holding...


If i feel cheat in any way, i just quit, thats all. Even if i made only 6K instead of 9K becoz of cheatin, too bad but its still profitable to me and im havin fun while makin money period!


Bob

You may still be cheated in a B&M room today, so much for growing pains. You are probably being cheated in an online card room. What are you going to do personally to change this? If the answer is as I suspect which is nada then please do not start the juiced shuffle thread. It will just bring more complaining kooks out who have a lot to say but no solution.


No come up with a viable solution and I will be pleased to discuss its' potential merits and plausbility. Till than either play and have fun as bob just said or hunker down in a corner and find a new hobby. Just being practical here!!


NetKook Numero UNO

I would be very surprised if anyone could read your cards. I believe the encryption used on these links uses 128-bit keys, so as long as the site programer is competent, there is no way anyone could read your cards (or the site is trying to cheat ).

Hi rich-

Thanks for the response. Could you explain to me what 128 bit encryption is- and why it would be difficult to crack. Also- i believe that Highlands had this problem before- where a couple players were able to see other's cards. What happened in that case? Maybe MS knows some details with respect to that one?

never underestimate the power of greed. especially where gambling is concerned.


it wouldnt be too hard to put a password code in that allows people at the site to see the tables cards while in play. could be put in there with the best intentions. but this could be abused. if the site wants that option in there, the programmer isnt going to lose the job by refusing to put it in there. and that's if he recognized the potential abuses anyway.


is anyone doing it? who knows...but it is a possibility that comes with internet gambling.


buyer beware.


b

Dolores.... if you used a computer designed to crack cyphers... as the government has, and put one to work on a 128 bit cypher, it would take that state of the art computer 49 BILLION years to crack it. The universe as far as we can tell so far has only been around for 30-40 billion years.

What does B&M mean?

nm

Thank you Jim. Im just a poker player- so i dont know of such things. I appreciate the info.


That being said- was Highlands not using a 128 bit encryption? Could someone tell me? Does anyone know?

"Even if i made only 6K instead of 9K becoz of cheatin, too bad but its still profitable to me and im havin fun while makin money period!

"


What a sap! You likely vote Democrat since they only want to tax you 50% more.

"The universe as far as we can tell so far has only been around for 30-40 billion years."


Stephen Hawking you ain't. Current estimates center somewhere near to 17,000,000,000 years.

"come up with a viable solution..."


Done! Quit Parasite Poker forever. Never buy chips again. This leaves you funding an account via freerolls, ACR is a good choice. Enjoy until it's no longer fun.

I was not playing at Highlands or Planet when a software weakness was exploited by someone. From what I have been told, which may have nothing to do with reality, a piece of software that the client used, MS?, was hacked and someone won $1000 playing $10-20 Hold'em at Highlands before other software put up red flags to how the hands were being played. It appears the player could see all the opponent's holecards.


About once a week I see a hand played funny and I write to support about it. Most of the time it comes back either with the hands they have the hand was played within reason or this guy plays this way all the time and the other player is not always the beneficiary of his poor play.


Every couple of months the players that I have a question about need more looking at or are barred by a site.


Supposedly, the software will catch players colluding by how they use the info they're sharing. It seems the only people that know for sure if the different site's software is catching anyone, is the site operaters themselves. The common knowledge is that doing obvious folds, AQ vs someone with AK preflop, will activate the red flags.


I feel the real value of internet poker, in this area, is a site's ability to rerun hands that people have played together in the past, once someone complains about them. If you put the last 100 hands, of two suspect players, in the hands of a knowledgeable floorman there is almost no way to use the info without being caught.


As to having some new players on a site for a few weeks, and then finding out they were cheating, when no money is refunded to players that were cheated is not a great feeling, but at least the threat to future earnings is safer.


MS Sunshine

I think the biggest problem with online poker is that the community (compared to B&M) is much smaller. Because the regulars are much more familiar with each other, there is more of an inplicit collusion going on.


For example: I play mostly 2/4 or 4/8 stud at paradise. The group of 4/8'ers is much smaller than that of the 2/4'ers...Generally, the goal is to find a newcomer, and isolate (provided s/he plays poorly, or below average). If you are part of the regular group, you are less inclined to mix it up with another regular; but the newcomer almost always will have to show down the hand. This is a ganging up type of situation, and is tantamount to collusion, even though I don't really "know" any of the other regulars (i.e. don't chat with them).


The higher up in limits you go, the more pronounced it is. For example, I was in a gambling mood a few weeks ago, and tried 10/20. Fortunately, I hit a few hands right away and won about $500.00 in about half-an hour. However, during this time, and for about an hour after that, I realized I was being isolated almost every time I entered the pot...always a raise or two right behind me (then, magically, these raisers would withdraw on the next round - they essentially forced me to stop betting into them, or they forced me to fold. They would fold if the bet came from somewhere else, however.)


On the hands I was not involved, the game seemed normal...ante stealers, would lay down their hand if raised on 4th, etc. Or if a strong board bet into them, they would play their hands accordingly - in other words, they gave the other regulars respect for their boards and bets, but never me (unless I was clearly loaded). I was fully aware of the situation, because that is exactly what I would do in my regular games. Most of the players even chatted to each other once in awhile about non-poker, etc. I knew this would be trouble, and I left (with the profit, I might add).


The point is, it does not matter if the players have entered into a formal collusion pact, the proper strategy dictates a form of implied collusion - this is not news to anyone, most B&M games at the high levels have this, because some tables will always be "regular orientated." However, in the B&M world, there is much more variety and it is easy to find games with tourists, or even rec. players who do not play the same table day after day. In the on-line world, if your game is stud at 4/8 or higher, you basically have 8 tables to choose from, period.


Be advised.

So what you are saying is that they punish a player for passing the AQ test? Seems like a poor program to me.


Net Kook Numero UNO

sorry, read closer, I'm talking about stud

M comment was under MS Sunshines post, not in regards to yous. Sorry about any confusion.


Net Kook Numero UNO

np, I was confused, however.

"About once a week I see a hand played funny and I write to support about it. Most of the time it comes back either with the hands they have the hand was played within reason or this guy plays this way all the time and the other player is not always the beneficiary of his poor play."


And just what exactly would you expect CS to fire back? "Hey MS, thanks for putting us on to these guys that can see your hole cards. Here's a fat refund." No, this is an exercise in futility. Most anyone could see that.

That is probably true MS however I have folded AQ many times preflop & AK, QQ a couple of times.Doubt if it is always the same person I'm playing against though.

You aren't keeping good track of your opponents if you don't know when to fold thode hands.

I was playing at Highlands when this happened. Two Russians hacked in thru the hand history. Within 24 hours they were caught and Highlands refunded money to all that were cheated {approx $14,000}. They closed for a few days and fixed the software problem. I got over $500. Planet closed at the same time for a few days but would not admit they were hacked. They had about 20 times the business Highlands had at the time and didn't refund anything. Same software and they were hacked too! I quit Planet and never player there since.

You're as fuking out of touch on astronomy as you are poker, the farthest objects now detected are over 30 BILLION light years away.... which PRESUPPOSES the universe being around when the light from them was 1st produced.

So- my question is this:


What was different about Planet and Highlands software- than is currently being used by all other major cardrooms- and Planet now?


Does ANYONE know?

This is a topic of much interest to me. If I missed the biggest change in cosmology this decade I need to get with the program. Please straighten me out.


And don't say it was Art Bell.

I wish that we could have someone from one of the poker sites explain how their collusion algorithms work. Of course, this would defeat the purpose of having collusion algorithms.


MS, the idea that you can catch people by looking at preflop behavior where both suspected colluders have premium starters is naive. Don't you think that a colluder who thinks for even one second would eliminate this type of red flag? If they are colluding couldn't they just keep a log of money passed back and forth to each other in this manner and settle up at the end of the day, week, or month?


The bigger problem, and one that is much more difficult to catch, is where player 1 folds A7 in early position, which allows Player 2 in the big blind to fold to a raise from the button with 77 where he might have 3 bet or called otherwise.


Some people don't think that this type of collusion is a big deal. It bugs the hell out of me, and I think that the extra two cards of information would, even if only occasionally, be invaluable.


I have been generally satisfied with the responses I have received from internet card rooms when I have suspected collusion (Pokerstars in particular gave me a very thorough, very case specific run down of their analysis). (Ultimate Bet is the worst in this regard).


But I think that even if we can eliminate the egregious "best hand" play by analyzing hand histories where players play against each other, it will be very difficult to get rid of the exchange of info by phone or messenger service.

MS, the idea that you can catch people by looking at preflop behavior where both suspected colluders have premium starters is naive.


This is the best place to start. And your example of someone folding 77 to a button raise pre-flop should raise a red flag.


MS Sunshine

Ms Sunshine,


You have got to be kidding right? You suspect collusion when someone folds a baby pair to a raise because they were on the button? It must be miserable to be so paranoid. Same as for your AQ preflop fold to a raise which happened to be AK. I believe you should fold AQ to a pre-flop raise the majority of the time. You must fire off a lot of e-mails to support. Bet you never send one when your wife folds to your raise from the kitchen!!!


Net Kook Numero UNO

Lets see, Big blind folds with 77 when the button raises first in, yeah, that's normal internet play.


I have folded AQ preflop,but I get this twitch in my face that doesn't go away for for hours, but in certain spots it doesn't happen. What if someone limps and mid-table AQ folds and one of the blinds has AK? Would this seem normal?


Like I said, about once a week I write support about a hand and it is mostly about squeeze plays on the turn or the river.


Supposedly, the software should pick-up these odd plays, we never see, and alert the floorman to take a closer look.


As to my wife and I, if support goes over our hands and sees us playing a normal game then we should not be accused for how something looks.


This is not like live play, where you can sit and think that something is going on and you don't know about it. This is where a poker site is seeing our holecards every hand and know that nothing is going on.


MS Sunshine

serious question:


so you call this 3.5 to 1 bet with your 77 and you don't flop another 7, as you won't about 7 times out of 8


then what do you do when he bets again after your check?

Raise?

MS,


a) might look suspicious to fold 77, but there is no way that this could be conclusive.


b) players who avoid the clothesline on the turn/river because they know it raises red flags will not be the subject of your emails to support.


c) Hence, how do these players get analyzed in the first place? Do you suggest that a poker site comes up with a scanning program that compares the starters of every combination of two players ever to sit at a table together? This would take resources that no poker site would want to expend.


I agree with you that an easy way to look at 2 players would be to say "how often does Player A fold KK to Player B's AA on a rag flop?"


But I am just warning that this method is easily circumvented, and that the cost of "passive" collusion -- exchange of information as opposed to team betting strategies -- may be something that online players just have to eat.


RH

I never meant for my simple examples to be anywhere near what the software does, but a weighted point system to chose what players a floorman looks at is about what they do.


A fold with the 77 might be only 1 point and say 10 points is needed for a theshold, to bring it to someones attention, within a given time frame. This is assuming that everything works the way the sites propose they do.


b) players who avoid the clothesline on the turn/river because they know it raises red flags will not be the subject of your emails to support.




They are.


As to your concerns about passive cheating, how are they hurting you if they are unable to use the infomation in the most profitable situations, without fear of being caught?


MS Sunshine

I understand, and I actually stayed away from internet poker for over a year because I feared cheating. I agree that people inside the site have an infinite ability to cheat. What I was trying to say in the post was if the site is trying to be fair, there are very standard internet protocols that are very easy to program and very secure. In Java, for example, it is trivial to set up a very secure interface.

Sorry I didn't respond sooner, but the basic answer was provided by CrazyJim. For many years, the US Government specified that computer use the Data Encryption Standard (DES) which uses a 56-bit key, and it has shown to be breakable if you have enough computer power (although I doubt that many people could even break this fast enough for a hand of cards; but don't play against anyone working for NSA :,) ). 128 bit key is much, much harder to break. There are more than twice as many key bits, and breakability means searching a key space that grows exponentially. In other words DES requires searching a space of 2 raised to the 56th power while the new protocols require searching 2 raised to the 128th power, which Jim pointed out is a huge space. Also there are standard internet interfaces with well known methods for programing so unless the site is trying to cheat, your cards should be safe.