Betting into straight or flush draws when shortstacked...

[Dj007]

Hey all, after months of following all of your posts I have finally signed up to join in =)
My first debate is playing str8 (open ended) and flush draws on the flop when you are shortstacked. For examples sake lets say...
Late in a multi tourney final 2 tables
Blinds $100 / $200 no ante
UTG $10,000
UTG+1 $13,500
Hero $ 3,000 10 /images/graemlins/club.gif J /images/graemlins/club.gif
BB $ 6,000

UTG limps, UTG+1 raises to $400, hero, BB and UTG all call.
POT is $1600
FLOP is 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

UTG and UTG+1 check to you, what is your move?
How would your play change if UTG or UTG+1 bet $800?

[paulish]

I would fold [J/images/graemlins/club.gif T/images/graemlins/club.gif] pre-flop. You have a limper and araiser in front. The players behind you might raise, including the limper. I don't care if it's a 2xBB or 4xBB raise.

I would check-fold in both cases on the flop. This draw is not good enugh against 3 opponents. You are the short stack, but you have 28xBB left. Wait for a better moment. I spend my hard earn chips, stealing instead here...

<font color="blue"> paulish </font>

[patrick dicaprio]

this is a great gambling hand preflop esp if the raiser can hold many hands, which he can here. come over the top preflop and if he calls you get to see all five cards with a very good hand for this type of action. given how you played it any bet pot commits you so decide if you want to risk all of your chips and act accordingly.

Pat

[KdoubleK]

I absolutely disagree. This is not a great gambling hand preflop since any hand containing a K, Q, or A beats it as well as all pocket pairs. It is a favorite against almost nothing. with your stack you should not play this hand against any raise unless its a minimum raise and you have the button. Even then its a marginal play. Check the flop and be done to anything but a minimum bet when you get to close the action.

[patrick dicaprio]

but you have folding equity you are live and you are not correct that it is a dog to all pairs, it is a favorite to 77--22

Pat

[KdoubleK]

I used an odds calculator and you are correct Patrick, it is a slight favorite over those small pairs. Regardless, it is still not a "great gambling hand" preflop particularly since there are players yet to act behind you. The only time you get a call is when you are beaten, often badly. This might have positive expectation against a lone raiser when you're in the BB, but here the rest of the table could wake up with a hand and call you. With 3000 chips you can find many, many hands with which to pick a better spot. Also, I don't think all-in strategy is worth much while you still have more than 10x the BB.

[jennicide]

Re-read post completely and I have a different stand /images/graemlins/smile.gif The Hero (sb) is left with 2600 in chips after he called the raise. I'm assuming he checked and the flop for a free card and UTG bet 800 into the pot. The pot is now 2400. If the SB decides to flat call...this would be a bad move. I think the only move for the SB's stack size is to move all in, if he wants to draw. If the SB pushes, he is giving almost 3:1 for the UTG/UTG+1 bettor to call another 1800 to win 5k. Needless to say, the UTG/UTG+1 stacks aren't small, so I doubt they will be folding their hand to the sb's bet. This is the only way I see this hand being played out if the SB wants to play the hand after the flop.

I still think there in more value in folding this hand preflop and even after the misclick and calling, the sb is left with 2600 in chips which gives him a survivable stack at these blind levels for them to find better spots to get chips from instead of getting sure callers while on open ended straight draws.

[hurlyburly]

I guess I'm the only one who would push here preflop. JTs isnt a good drawing hand, it's the best drawing hand. Shortstacked like this, you might have some equity and it's a nice pf pot to take down. Letting the action close on a min raise is sort of a crime. I'd also take the stop-and-go postflop here. OESD + runner-runner flush your 36% against AA here.

[sdplayerb]

I definitely fold this preflop, you are putting up way too much of your stack here. Anything above 10% of your stack means you are not getting implied odds.

But if i was in the hand (maybe i was the BB), i am getting all my chips in here. I push if checked to me, i come over the top to a bet of 800.
Only way I fold is if somebody bet so much that there was no folding equity, which i would say at around 1,200.
You really don't need a lot of folding equity here.

Even if called your odds aren't that terrible as you are getting over 1.5-1 on your money.

[KdoubleK]

Ok, maybe I'm confused here, but Patrick and Hurly seem to think that because J10 suited is a good drawing hand that makes it correct to push with it preflop. I've always thought that the value of good drawing hands is when you actually get to play a flop, not take them head to head before seeing any more cards. If they mean to say that they would push on the flop, then I would see the reasoning.