Collusion?

[se2schul]

Is this collusion or is it allowed at Party?

#Game No : 1560553868
***** Hand History for Game 1560553868 *****
NL Hold'em $10 Buy-in + $1 Entry Fee Trny:9385614 Level:3
Blinds(25/50) - Tuesday, February 08, 17:24:08 EDT 2005
Table Table 11213 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 4: se2schul ( $650 )
Seat 1: ajkennedy ( $890 )
Seat 2: PrinceOfSpad ( $775 )
Seat 10: dolemitefunk ( $5685 )
Trny:9385614 Level:3
Blinds(25/50)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to se2schul [ 9d 9s ]
ajkennedy raises [100].
PrinceOfSpad: 6
PrinceOfSpad calls [100].
se2schul is all-In [625]
dolemitefunk folds.
ajkennedy: are you going to call prince?
PrinceOfSpad: no
se2schul: can't ask that
ajkennedy is all-In [790]
PrinceOfSpad folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Kh, 2d, Tc ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Ah ]
se2schul: it's collusion
** Dealing River ** [ Ad ]
ajkennedy shows [ Jc, Ks ] two pairs, aces and kings.
se2schul shows [ 9d, 9s ] two pairs, aces and nines.
se2schul finished in fourth place.
ajkennedy wins 240 chips from side pot #1 with two pairs, aces and kings.
ajkennedy wins 1450 chips from the main pot with two pairs, aces and kings.
i never said i was the best......lucky and decent....thats all
se2schul has left the table.
The Small Blind left the table. The Dealer button remains in place.
Game #1560557437 starts.

[Dallara]

Yes, 100%. Most players don't realize that it is, but if you report it to Party, they'll warn them and probably ban their chat for a while.

[AtticusFinch]

It's certainly inappropriate, especially if they know each other. I'd report it.

The obvious flip side is prince could lie and call with AA or something. I'd still report it.

[se2schul]

Follow up:
I emailed party as suggested. Here is the reply:

Dear Steve,

Thank you for contacting us.

Thank you for bringing this to our notice. We do see that the conversation between these players was indeed inappropriate. Hence we have conducted a detailed investigation on both the accounts to check for any possible team play between them.

We have looked into all the necessary aspects of their history in our card room and we would like to share with you these important facts that helped us arrive at a conclusion:

1- Both these players are coming from different states in USA.

2- This is the only tournament where they have shared tables, in their entire association with this card room.

3- We have gone through all the game records of this tournament and confirm that there is no sign of collusion involved. Also note that we have focused not only on the hands in which the player has been involved, but also all the hands in which they have been together by themselves.

However, we do agree that the table conversation that transpired between these players is inappropriate to say the least. As a result of this report and consequent investigation, we have now

1) Blocked the chatting facilities of the player *ajkennedy* and *PrinceOfSpad*
2) Barred both the players from sharing the same tables in this card room.
3) Flagged their accounts to periodically review the activities in these accounts.
4) Issued stern warnings to both the players, informing them about possible sterner actions in case such activities are repeated in their account.

Steve, we thank you for getting this to our notice, as this is in keeping with our priority of keeping up the integrity of this card room. It indeed is heartening to have players like you in this card room who care about the integrity of our games.

Regards,

Jada Brown
Investigations Team for Poker
alerts@partypoker.com

[Dallara]

That looks like a pretty good response. I was actually at a table last night where two guys seemed to be chip dumping to each other. I reported it and sent some hand histories to Party, so we'll see what happens.

I didn't use to think that this was so much of a problem, but I was watching ActionMonkey on a Step5 Monday night and there was a whole conversation about these three Russian guys who tried to collude against him in an earlier Step 5.

[Shorty35]

I just cant believe that this thorough response comes from the same Party service organization that gives us "this tournaent will be paused shortly....". I am very glad that they take collusion seriously.

I have been taking an informal poll of youger players in B&M cardrooms (Las Vegas, California, Foxwoods). Nearly 50% of the college/recent grad players tell me that they colluded while in college.

[AtticusFinch]

Wow, I am very pleasantly surprised. You couldn't ask for a better response than that.

[se2schul]

Personally, I feel that a cheater's winnings should be garnished and distributed to those that didn't cheat.

Check out the response below to an earlier case of collusion against me where Party did just that.

----

Dear Steve,

Thank you for contacting us with your concern. We have investigated into the account of the player "anaconda80us" and we do agree that the actions of the player are totally unacceptable.

We have placed him 3rd and moved you to 2nd place, and transferred the difference in winnings between the two places, the amount of $5 has been taken from his account and transferred to your account.

We hope you find this to your satisfaction.

If you have any further questions, comments or concerns, please contact us at alerts@PartyPoker.com and we will be more than glad to assist you.

Best regards,
Jathin Paladugu,
Investigations Team

--Original Message--
From: se2schul@gmail.com
Date: 2005-01-02 16:17
To: abuse@partypoker.com; info@partypoker.com
Cc: se2schul@gmail.com
Subject: Collusion during a Sit 'n Go[#2184150]

I would like to report a case of collusion on January 2, 2005. It
occured in #Game No : 1380773393 with only 3 players left. I was all
in when player anaconda80us told spartan524 what his hand was and that
he'd fold to help take me out. The conversation from anaconda80us
telling spartan524 his hand was clearly collusion against me. I would
hope that Party Poker suspend the chat priviledges of anaconda80us and
give him the 3rd place finish that a cheater deseves, bumping me into
second place.

Below is the hand history in question.
Sincerely,
Steve Schultz (se2schul)

#Game No : 1380773393
***** Hand History for Game 1380773393 *****
NL Hold'em $5 Buy-in + $1 Entry Fee Trny:8349336 Level:6
Blinds(150/300) - Sunday, January 02, 15:53:56 EDT 2005
Table Table 12798 (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 3
Seat 3: spartan524 ( $4035 )
Seat 1: se2schul ( $260 )
Seat 2: anaconda80us ( $3705 )
Trny:8349336 Level:6
Blinds(150/300)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to se2schul [ 6h 7d ]
spartan524 raises [600].
se2schul is all-In [110]
anaconda80us calls [300].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Ac, Th, Qd ]
anaconda80us: hope u got a good hand
anaconda80us: i got XXXX
anaconda80us: take him out
anaconda80us checks.
anaconda80us: 7 8
spartan524 bets [300].
anaconda80us: if u wanti'll just fold
anaconda80us folds.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 7s ]
** Dealing River ** [ Ah ]
se2schul: dude, you can't have conversation like that
spartan524 shows [ Tc, Jc ] two pairs, aces and tens.
se2schul shows [ 6h, 7d ] two pairs, aces and sevens.
se2schul finished in third place and won $10.
spartan524 wins 980 chips from side pot #1 with two pairs, aces and tens.
spartan524 wins 780 chips from the main pot with two pairs, aces and tens.
se2schul has left the table.
Game #1380776391 starts.

[GauchoFish]

they say that...what percentage do you think actually did and of those, what percentage made money at it as opposed to dumping because they had not clue what they were doing?

[willie24]

[ QUOTE ]
Nearly 50% of the college/recent grad players tell me that they colluded while in college.

[/ QUOTE ]

i have trouble believing that 10% of recent college grad players, much less 50%, are smart enough collude successfully enough to make a total collusion profit over $10.

did the people you surveyed admit to aggressive collusion- using signals and such to get more money in pots? or just the typical passive stuff?

[Dallara]

I agree about the garnishing from cheaters. My response from Party didn't involve that, but at least they're banning them from the same table. I suppose the fact that I didn't finish ITM may have caused them to not compensate me, although that's not really right. Here's the response:

Dear Keith,

We thank you for bringing this to our notice. We have completed our investigations in regards to the players "TRacing01" and "PittsburghN" in the table 11226.

We agree that few game logs are indeed suspicious, so we have further investigated their activity on our card room. However, since few hands are suspicious, we have sent an email to the players mentioning the game logs asking them for clarification and as a first precautionary measure we are blocking these players to share the same table. They would not be able to play at the same table.

We would be monitoring their actions and game pattern regularly and if we find any suspicious activity we will take necessary actions.

We are glad to have players like you who care for PartyPoker.com integrity and would expect continued cooperation and support from you.

Thank you for being a PartyPoker.com player.

If you have any further questions, comments or concerns, please contact us at alerts@PartyPoker.com and we will be more than glad to assist you.

Best regards,
Harish
Investigations Team

I should note that they responded within 12 hours, so they've obviously got some resources dedicated to policing this stuff.

[linker33]

I was at in a SNG the other night, short stack, down to 4 players, and had been chatting during the game w/ a guy who was now big stack. He folded SB to me 3 out of 5 times, which allowed me to stay in the game long enough to come in 3rd. I don't know if this was intentional, or if he just had bad cards, as it was never discussed. However the person who ended up in 4th accused us of colluding, and said he reported us. I've never played w/ this person before, however one time after folding to me, he stated somthing to the effect of "there you go", and after knocking this other guy out, putting me in the money, I jokingly stated that he had "saved me"(by eliminating someone). I did'nt even notice that he may have been helping me until 4th place pointed it out.
Even if he was helping me, there was nothing I could do about him dumping chips to me, if that's actually what he was doing. Is this collusion?

[Iamafish]

I don't know much about how this stuff works, but logic tells me that, no, its not. I say that sometimes, "take it", people say that in card rooms all the time. There has to be more evidence than that.

If they do do an investigation, they'll have to search for other games you played in.

Ill bet you anything that guy was once reported for something like that, and whats to get everyone back.

[Iamafish]

I don't know much about how this stuff works, but logic tells me that, no, its not. I say that sometimes, "take it", people say that in card rooms all the time. There has to be more evidence than that.

If they do do an investigation, they'll have to search for other games you played in.

Ill bet you anything that guy was once reported for colluding, and wants to get back at everyone.

[Shorty35]

What most of them said is that they would geta whole bunch of people in the room with pcs and a wifi connection and they would share what each other's hands were. Mostly ring games (particularly NL ring games where one hand can make all the difference.

ps. In case you were wondering, I'm 37 so I fall out of the college colluder age bracket

[wbrumfiel]

Its not like you could stop him from dumping chips to you. I mean what are you going to do, type "I have a crappy hand, please raise me" in the chat box? If the guy wasnt smart enough to steal your blinds or he just wanted you to finish ITM instead of the other guy and had SOME control of that then there isnt much you could do. I just wouldnt say anything in the chat about it and let them do thier investigation and find nothing wrong.

[willie24]

WOW

so they were talking about online cheating.

that's scary- although you'd think many of them would be caught pretty quickly.

[Scuba Chuck]

Wow, I am very pleasantly surprised. You couldn't ask for a better response than that.

My sentiments exactly.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
I was at in a SNG the other night, short stack, down to 4 players, and had been chatting during the game w/ a guy who was now big stack. He folded SB to me 3 out of 5 times, which allowed me to stay in the game long enough to come in 3rd. I don't know if this was intentional, or if he just had bad cards, as it was never discussed. However the person who ended up in 4th accused us of colluding, and said he reported us. I've never played w/ this person before, however one time after folding to me, he stated somthing to the effect of "there you go", and after knocking this other guy out, putting me in the money, I jokingly stated that he had "saved me"(by eliminating someone). I did'nt even notice that he may have been helping me until 4th place pointed it out.
Even if he was helping me, there was nothing I could do about him dumping chips to me, if that's actually what he was doing. Is this collusion?


[/ QUOTE ]

Depending on the game situation, by folding his chips to you, the short stack, allowed him to go about stealing chips from the other two and ensuring himself a higher probability of taking first.

I do this often. FWIW, I doubt that he was doing it to be nice, there was probably another motive.

[Shorty35]

They dont get caught becasue they dont use the chat feature. They literally show each other their cards on the screen. Usually it was in low buy in NL games because one colluded hand could yield the most. Scary, huh

[GauchoFish]

i got an easier way...open up AIM...have your buddy at his house and you at yours...each time you get your hand you IM him....AcJh...and he IM's you...

the customary way to do this is one guy gets the clock for a set amount of time (1 hour usually) and whatever each player wins or loses in that time is his take (regardless of which account it comes from) and then he has to give the other guy the same amount of time.

This is particularly useful for college students as it gives them time to do some mindless clicking while the other guy is on the clock, time that can be used for studying, downloading porn or reasearching how to collude online.

Just so you know, I received my B.A. in June, so i'm far too old to have ever colluded in college. This is what i've heard /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
#Game No : 1380773393
***** Hand History for Game 1380773393 *****
NL Hold'em $5 Buy-in + $1 Entry Fee Trny:8349336 Level:6
Blinds(150/300) - Sunday, January 02, 15:53:56 EDT 2005
Table Table 12798 (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 3
Seat 3: spartan524 ( $4035 )
Seat 1: se2schul ( $260 )
Seat 2: anaconda80us ( $3705 )
Trny:8349336 Level:6
Blinds(150/300)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to se2schul [ 6h 7d ]
spartan524 raises [600].
se2schul is all-In [110]
anaconda80us calls [300].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Ac, Th, Qd ]
anaconda80us: hope u got a good hand
anaconda80us: i got XXXX
anaconda80us: take him out
anaconda80us checks.
anaconda80us: 7 8
spartan524 bets [300].
anaconda80us: if u wanti'll just fold
anaconda80us folds.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 7s ]
** Dealing River ** [ Ah ]
se2schul: dude, you can't have conversation like that
spartan524 shows [ Tc, Jc ] two pairs, aces and tens.
se2schul shows [ 6h, 7d ] two pairs, aces and sevens.
se2schul finished in third place and won $10.
spartan524 wins 980 chips from side pot #1 with two pairs, aces and tens.
spartan524 wins 780 chips from the main pot with two pairs, aces and tens.
se2schul has left the table.
Game #1380776391 starts.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I were party there is 0 chance that you would have gotten any money for this hand.

The guy was an idiot, but his talk had absolutely no effect on the outcome of the hand as far as you are concerned since you were already all-in at this point and he was folding to any bet. The only thing his bet did was cost him any chance of catching some miracle runner runner if his opponent wouldn't have bet without him saying something.