99 flops a set, mandatory check on river after straight draw hits?

[FreakDaddy]

This is probably an obvious check on the river since I knew I had people hanging out with a stright draw and an Ace. Both the SB and Button are Loose/Passive players and not very good, so I felt like I may be able to intimidate them, but I prbably should have checked the river? Any comments on play appreciated.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Turn: (6 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 calls, Button calls, SB calls.

River: (10 BB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 calls, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, Hero calls, MP2 folds, Button calls.

Final Pot: 17 BB

[reubenf]

That 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif is pretty scary against four players. I'm definitely not betting this.

[Reqtech]

[ QUOTE ]
That 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif is pretty scary against four players. I'm definitely not betting this.

[/ QUOTE ]

not to mention the flush coming out on the river, too. With 4 others on the river, I'd (probably weak-tightly) check and call a bet.

edit - oops, rereading this makes it look like I'm implying you didn't see the flush. but yeah, that 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif is a very scary card

[meep_42]

check-raise the flop, lead the turn.
check/call the river is fine.

-d

[shadow29]

This is a clear check/raise on the flop.

Check calling the river is fine.

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
SB and Button are Loose/Passive players ... I felt like I may be able to intimidate them

[/ QUOTE ]

A loose-passive player is one who - by definition - calls most bets. You might frighten a player like this with persistant betting, but you won't get them to fold.

This is why you should almost never bluff a loose-passive player.

You have the best hand far more often than there is a flush out against you. You should bet-call the river.

[GrunchCan]

check-raise the flop

Going for a check-raise in this spot is a mistake.

You have no reason to believe that if you check the flop it will be bet behind you. Letting it get checked through would be a catastrophe, for 2 reasons:

1) Hero has an equity edge and makes money with every bet going in.
2) Letting draws take a free card is a disaster

Hero should definitely bet the flop.

[VTDuffman]

[ QUOTE ]
check-raise the flop

Going for a check-raise in this spot is a mistake.

You have no reason to believe that if you check the flop it will be bet behind you. Letting it get checked through would be a catastrophe, for 2 reasons:

1) Hero has an equity edge and makes money with every bet going in.
2) Letting draws take a free card is a disaster

Hero should definitely bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to disagree with the inclination that we have "no reason" to believe that if we check the flop that it will be checked behind us. I think that there is good reason to beleive that MP2 will bet behind us based on his pre-flop raise.

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
check-raise the flop

Going for a check-raise in this spot is a mistake.

You have no reason to believe that if you check the flop it will be bet behind you. Letting it get checked through would be a catastrophe, for 2 reasons:

1) Hero has an equity edge and makes money with every bet going in.
2) Letting draws take a free card is a disaster

Hero should definitely bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to disagree with the inclination that we have "no reason" to believe that if we check the flop that it will be checked behind us. I think that there is good reason to beleive that MP2 will bet behind us based on his pre-flop raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

[shadow29]

Word, duffman.

[GrunchCan]

Jeez, your'e right. I thought Hero raised PF. My bad.

In that case, going for the CR is the right play, and its not even close.

[FreakDaddy]

[ QUOTE ]
check-raise the flop

Going for a check-raise in this spot is a mistake.

You have no reason to believe that if you check the flop it will be bet behind you. Letting it get checked through would be a catastrophe, for 2 reasons:

1) Hero has an equity edge and makes money with every bet going in.
2) Letting draws take a free card is a disaster

Hero should definitely bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, check-raise is a mistake here. I'd only check raise a set if I flopped a set of kings or aces. Otherwise, it has to be bet, risk being outdrawn or even worse, allowing a free card to be played.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
check-raise the flop

Going for a check-raise in this spot is a mistake.

You have no reason to believe that if you check the flop it will be bet behind you. Letting it get checked through would be a catastrophe, for 2 reasons:

1) Hero has an equity edge and makes money with every bet going in.
2) Letting draws take a free card is a disaster

Hero should definitely bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, check-raise is a mistake here. I'd only check raise a set if I flopped a set of kings or aces. Otherwise, it has to be bet, risk being outdrawn or even worse, allowing a free card to be played.

[/ QUOTE ]

Grunchcan was wrong in this case, as he misread the hand. Going for the checkraise was clearly correct on this flop.

Rob

[FreakDaddy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


I have to disagree with the inclination that we have "no reason" to believe that if we check the flop that it will be checked behind us. I think that there is good reason to beleive that MP2 will bet behind us based on his pre-flop raise.

[/ QUOTE ]


I agree.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, the pre-flop raise was considered, but the flop didn't scream to me that he would bet.

[Dead]

There was a good chance probably that either the PFR would bet or the Button would bet.

[FreakDaddy]

[ QUOTE ]


Grunchcan was wrong in this case, as he misread the hand. Going for the checkraise was clearly correct on this flop.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Entity,

Well, this is good feedback, but can you explain your thought process in more detail? From where I'm sitting MP2 could be raising any low pair, or KQ, JK combo. He's loose and not the greatest player. By betting the flop I'm insuring that I get some bets in. Most loose/passive players will call at least one flop bet to see the turn. Even if he has high pair like KK, I don't see him betting this flop for sure. Loose/Passive players sometimes think they're already beat if an Ace hits the board, since so many people at this level hold on to aces like gold (which A7o from the button ended up beating me this hand). Another thing, I've noticed is that if I led the bet, I will get callers all the way, BUT if I check-raise, people may call the flop, BUT they will drop when I bet the turn like flies. If I'm missing something, please let me know. It may be a leak in my game, but I'd like to understand the thought process better before making that determiniation.
Thanks!

[FreakDaddy]

[ QUOTE ]
There was a good chance probably that either the PFR would bet or the Button would bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

And what if no one bets and an Ace, heart or seven falls on the turn? There's over a 40% chance that will occur. In this case, I don't think I'm going to move the person with the ace or flush draw off the board, but I have a small chance to get rid of that inside straight draw.

[Al P]

If an ace falls your hand is golden. That's one card you would want to see if the flop was checked through.

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
Grunchcan was wrong in this case, as he misread the hand. Going for the checkraise was clearly correct on this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is absolutely correct. Anyone reading this thread must realize that a checkraise attempt is the clearly-correct play.