interesting 5&5 hand against maniac

[aggie]

I'm foggy on the details but i think i can remember the main gist...
5+5 NLHE...

My stack: $2,500
Maniac stack: $25,000

background: The maniac is extremely loose aggressive, but not unreasonable. He's an MIT student, so he understands the math. He's also incredibly wealthy and he truely does not care about money. He's competetive and wants to win. That said, His grasp of NLHE may be a little lacking and definitely likes to push people around. I've seen him do just about everything. Make huge calls with nothing (correctly), make huge calls with nothing (and be very wrong)....Make giant raises with nothing, big draws, the nuts, or somewhere in between. He's capable of anything (except playing passively)...In the long run, he's good for the game, but he's definitely not an easy mark and will give you headaches in the short run. At the time, he probably saw me as a tight player who folded to a lot of raises.

UTG limps, I limp w 8-8, maniac limps, button limps, both blinds limp....

Flop- 6-7-8 w/ two spades (6-players)

UTG bets 30, i raise to $175, and maniac raises to $1100. What should i do? (results below in white-->highlight to see)

<font color="white"> I Reraised all in. If i called i would have been pot-commited against this player. I raised to make a flush draw, straight draw, or pair + draw pay....He showed me the nut-straight and i lost the hand. In hindsight, i really hate the way i played this hand.</font>&lt;------Results

[creedofhubris]

Your raise to $175 seems high to me.

Calling his reraise is totally read-dependent. Besides your knowledge of the player, I think the size of your stack (very large) in relation to the size of the blinds (small) and the size of his reraise (colossal) should influence that decision strongly.

[aggie]

My raise was big because people in this game did not seem to mind big raises.

I have no read on this guy. I did think to myself, "why the hell is he raising so much?" and that is one of the factors i used to decide to go all-in. there is litteraly no hand he could have rolled over that would have suprised me.

I guess the way he plays, he was more likely to have a monster, a draw, or a total bluff, than some kind of in-between hand (like top pair / top kicker)

[Usagi_yo]

It's a very dangerous flop. With your set, you can be a dog to something like a pair, straight draw, flush draw, and people with with even less perceived outs then that are going to be putting pressure on you. I'm not going to be too anxious to get all my money in the pot in that spot. Particularly since such a play optimizes the drawing hands for two cards to come with no more betting. I think just calling and seeing what happens. In this spot, you could easily be facing a re-raise and yet another re-raise before it comes back to you anyway.

Remember, you have 4 players yet to act behind you.

Bottom line -- very vulnerable set with too many players behind you yet to act. By just calling you can give your the opportunity to fill up cheaper and with more players in the pot for payoff value.

For those times you do go all-in and fill up, it certainly feels good and certainly seems like you played it correctly.

If I raise here, its with the intent to abandon hand to a huge re-raise or to move all in and take the shot should two other players want to get their money in there with me.

[WorldBeater]

UTG bets 30, i raise to $175, and maniac raises to $1100. What should i do? (results below in white--&gt;highlight to see)

I would fold and wait for a better spot. The pot had not been raised preflop, so there is a strong chance someone could have flopped a straight with a board like that. If the board were 5 8 9, there would not be as many possible straights out, but with the board you described, and the money as so deep, I would reccomend a fold.

[Usagi_yo]

A flat fold? Think thats wrong. With this flop, the number of players, and the stacks involved, you could multi-way action with a good draw to the nuts.

[Kaz The Original]

I think which card is not a spade is very important.

[WorldBeater]

[ QUOTE ]
A flat fold? Think thats wrong. With this flop, the number of players, and the stacks involved, you could multi-way action with a good draw to the nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]

I should clarify. I like a smooth call of the original bet. However, once the hero raised the pot, I advocate a fold to the 1,100 reraise.

[Kaz The Original]

Are you serious?

[aggie]

"I think which card is not a spade is very important. "

Why?...This guy is just as likely to have 8's as 7's as 6's in his hand....I also don't remember....It was either the 7 or 6 (i did not have a spade)

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]

I would fold and wait for a better spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how you fold top set here against a guy who it sounds like could easily have:

smaller set
straight
pair + draw
bluff
flush draw

I stick it all in there and hope he doesn't have a straight. As the player was described, I can't imagine not being a significant favorite to his range of hands.

[etizzle]

I assume this hand was played at foxwoods.

Who is the kid? I go to MIT and almost surely know him if he is currently enrolled.

[Lawrence Ng]

Hi Aggie, I have not read the results but here is my take.

The key point in this hand is that you are to maniac's right and by the time the action gets back to you.

Assuming everyone else folds on the flop - I will shove it all in against this maniac.

However, if there's even more raise upfront with other players - I will lay this down. You now not only have to fear contending with the maniac, but other players who know the maniac is crazy and obviously would not contend with him unless they are crazy too.

Lawrence

[FoxwoodsFiend]

I was at that session with Aggie and took a bus back to New Haven with villain. His name is Aditya and he is a grad student.

[FoxwoodsFiend]

Hey Aggie,
Like I was telling you at the time, I don't think there's anything you can do here. The only way you can conceivably avoid losing your stack is to smooth-call the 30, then villain will raise to less than a grand, you can re-raise without comitting yourself and if he comes over the top you can fold. Even that would be a stretch and probably end up being a bad fold in the long run, and that smooth-call is a mistake on that board with so many people behind. Basically, it sucks you have to put in that raise and then see significant action from villain. To anybody who is advocating folding to this guy, some more background is helpful-he was involved in a hand where he check-raised another deepstack from 2K to 8K on the turn on an A 5 6 7 board with 3 clubs. The guy called, then villain put his opponent all-in when the river blanked for another 10K or so. His opponent said call, and villain immediately mucked his cards before even seeing what his opponent held. YOU CANNOT fold to this man when you're drawing to a full house on the off chance you are actually behind.
It is rare that with deep stacks that you have to go to the felt with top set on a coordinated board, but this is one of those instances.

[radioheadfan]

Quick question:

What's the deal with the Foxwoods 5/5?

Is it no max buy-in with time charge? Rake?

What is the time charge or rake?

Sounds like a sweet game....

[FoxwoodsFiend]

No max buy-in, 6 dollars/half hour time charge. Can be really huge and profitable on the weekend.

[aggie]

Thanks, i came to pretty much the same conclusion. The main reason i posted this is because i kinda like your suggestion and wanted to see if anybody else suggested it...

Which line is better:
1. the line i took which maximizes protection for my hand
or...
2. Call the initial $30 bet from the guy on my right trying to play a smaller pot with this dangeous board? I think this strategy has a lot of merit because it should make the turn much easier to play.

[radioheadfan]

Hmmm. What's the median stack, around 1,000?

What's the largest you've ever seen? The $25K stack from the MIT kid seems ridiculous, how do you even bring that much cash?

I kinda like the idea of everyone playing at 5,000 big blinds though.

[LuvDemNutz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I would fold and wait for a better spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how you fold top set here against a guy who it sounds like could easily have:

smaller set
straight
pair + draw
bluff
flush draw

I stick it all in there and hope he doesn't have a straight. As the player was described, I can't imagine not being a significant favorite to his range of hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd do the same.

[freemoney]

To say you would fold here is being totally results oriented after looking at the results, I dont think you played the hand so bad at all, theres a good chance he could be way behind (drawing near dead) like two pair, lower set based on your description and even with this hand you still win the pot 35% of the time. I dont think you played it so bad at all

[WorldBeater]

"I don't see how you fold top set here against a guy who it sounds like could easily have

smaller set
straight
pair + draw
bluff
flush draw"

There's a few reasons why I might fold:
1. The pot had not been raised. I have a minimal amount invested in the pot.
2. The money is very deep.
3. The poster gave some indication that this player was not neccesarily all that bad, so I might opt to give him a lit bit of respect from time to time.
4. If the opponent is actually going all-in every time he gets a pair + flush draw, flush draw, etc. and the other hands listed in the hands range above, there should be another opportunity coming up soon that I would feel more comfortable with.

I'm willing to be convinced that folding would have been a terrible play, although, I think I am just giving the villain a little more respect and taking into consideration that the money is very deep. I might have considered waiting for a better opportunity. I don't think calling was bad, if the hero had the villain on the range of hands you had listed. So if in fact the villain would have played the other hands in the range identical to this one, then the call was great.





"I stick it all in there and hope he doesn't have a straight. As the player was described, I can't imagine not being a significant favorite to his range of hands."

Most of the posters agreed with this, and I can't disagree that it may have been the best play.

[FoxwoodsFiend]

[ QUOTE ]


There's a few reasons why I might fold:
1. The pot had not been raised. I have a minimal amount invested in the pot.
3. The poster gave some indication that this player was not neccesarily all that bad, so I might opt to give him a lit bit of respect from time to time.
4. If the opponent is actually going all-in every time he gets a pair + flush draw, flush draw, etc. and the other hands listed in the hands range above, there should be another opportunity coming up soon that I would feel more comfortable with.


[/ QUOTE ]
1: It never matters how much you've invested in the hand-it matters how much money you can win and whether you're ahead. This is fairly obvious.
3: He's good, but in the sense that he seems to know what he's doing, but giving him credit from time to time just means randomly deciding to respect him, and unless you have a read you just can't start guessing when a thousand dollars from him means nothing and when it means he's got you demolished.
4: Waiting for a better spot is ridiculous. Hero can re-buy and wait anyway. Once again, all that matters is if you're ahead or not. Against a player like this you can't just nut-peddle which is normally what "wait for a better spot" means.

[Ulysses]

See FF's post. He said pretty much what I would say. I just want to reiterate that from reading the initial post, I can't see how you think this is not a significantly +EV spot for hero to push.

Do this exercise. Come up with what you think is a reasonable weighting of non-straight hands Villain could have. Now, figure out what percentage of time Villian has to have a straight vs. the other hands for this to be a -EV spot.

[WorldBeater]

"It never matters how much you've invested in the hand-it matters how much money you can win and whether you're ahead. This is fairly obvious."

Doesn't whether or not this is a raised pot affect the strategy of the hand? How much you have in the pot, does relate to whether or not the pot was raised preflop. To extend this further, the amount that you have in the pot preflop does affect the dynamics of the hand to some extent.

I agree with your main point that what you have in the pot should not generally affect your decision about making a call.

Sounds like the poster made a good call.

[Kaz The Original]

The reason it is important is because on a board of 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif7 /images/graemlins/club.gif he could easily have a hand like 8s9s.

On a board of 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif7 /images/graemlins/club.gif8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif he's less likely to have a hand like 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

[aggie]

Yea, the foxwoods game is very interesting...FYI, the MIT kid went on one of the greatest runs i have ever seen in this game on that night. He was reportedly up like 40k at one point.

The 2.5k was probably below the median stack in this particular game. At one point, before i started playing, there were 6 people with over 10k on the table. Most of these people were very, very good players.

[TurkeyBreast]

Why hasn't anyone taken into account the fact that there is a bet and a raise coming to the maniac in this situation. If you ascribe some intelligence to him you have to give him credit for a straight or SF draw in my mind (or maybe just the nut flush draw). I mean can you really expect him to have 2 pair or a lower set after it goes bet, raise, reraise huge? I think you're probably plus ev to toss it here against this guy and most players. The only way I'd want to put my whole stack in here is against someone that I consider to be really tilted out or just a moron in general

[aggie]

Bullying can be an effective tactic...This guy know's that, and uses it to the extreme...He wins monster pots when he wins but also loses many monster pots. He can often do okay in the foxwoods game because people fail to adjust to him properly. They might put in a raise and fold to a giant reraise. Now I'm not certain risking my whole stack here was +ev, but i'm pretty sure it was (probably marginally).....

Where you're wrong, is that he could have many different hands. Straight, flush draw, st8 flush draw, 2-pair, smaller set, overpair, total bluff, pair and flush draw...

while the st8 was more likely than a bluff, i don't think it was by much.

[creedofhubris]

[ QUOTE ]

Where you're wrong, is that he could have many different hands. Straight, flush draw, st8 flush draw, 2-pair, smaller set, overpair, total bluff, pair and flush draw...

while the st8 was more likely than a bluff, i don't think it was by much.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've met some "loose aggro" players who make their money by overbetting the nuts when they do hit them, so I tend to be wary, but from what you describe, he's overbetting a wide variety of hands, so I retract my prior advice.

I crunched some numbers, and now I'm firmly in the "Diablo is right as usual" camp.

Your EV can't be worse than .305 (if he's got the nut straight and a redraw to a flush), so it's at worst a ~$500 mistake to move in if he has you beat, but it's a ~$2500 mistake NOT to move in if he's got a smaller set or two pair.

You pretty much have to move in.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
If you ascribe some intelligence to him you have to give him credit for a straight or SF draw in my mind (or maybe just the nut flush draw). I mean can you really expect him to have 2 pair or a lower set after it goes bet, raise, reraise huge? I think you're probably plus ev to toss it here against this guy and most players. The only way I'd want to put my whole stack in here is against someone that I consider to be really tilted out or just a moron in general

[/ QUOTE ]

Straight: Villain is 65:35 fave
SF draw: Villain is 55:45 dog
AsKs: Villain is 75:25 dog
Middle set: Villain is 93:7 dog

And yes, MANY players will raise big there with a set, not wanting to let draws get there cheap.

To not want to run it in this situation against the player as described is ridiculous.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Now I'm not certain risking my whole stack here was +ev, but i'm pretty sure it was (probably marginally).....

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
while the st8 was more likely than a bluff, i don't think it was by much.

[/ QUOTE ]

If that statement and your prior description of this opponent are anywhere close to correct, this was not a marginally +EV spot, it was a hugely +EV spot.

[scrub]

[ QUOTE ]
At the time, he probably saw me as a tight player who folded to a lot of raises.


[/ QUOTE ]

He'd never played with you before...? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

scrub

[aggie]

[ QUOTE ]
Subject: Re: interesting 5&amp;5 hand against maniac


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At the time, he probably saw me as a tight player who folded to a lot of raises.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



He'd never played with you before...?

scrub


[/ QUOTE ]

At the time i was playing pretty tight. I had also folded several times when the maniac put me to the test. There are some tables I can push over, and some i can't. This was clearly one of those i could not push over (maniac had everybody in gamble mode).

That's what's so frustrating to me about this maniac. He can take lot's of people off their games. YOu have to adjust to him....Hence my "he causes a lot of short run headaches comment." I'd rather play with ultra-tight players anyday.

[TurkeyBreast]

What I'm saying is... If you look at that spot I think you can clearly rule out 2 pair. What kind of a moron is going to put in a huge raise with 2 pair after 2 people have clearly showed interest on that type of a flop. I think you can also make the same argument for either of the lower sets. With that said what can he have? A straight or some type of a flush draw. If he knows the math well as seems to be implied here then I would argue that he either has the straight or a straight flush draw. If I'm right you're -ev and you're gonna create huge swings for yourself even if you are slightly +ev.

[aggie]

I've never been one to worry about huge swings...I've got an adequate bankroll, which is essential for these types of games....If you're sincerly worried about the chips you have in front of you, you're probably underbankrolled, or you don't have the heart (whatever that means) to play in the game....

As for his range of hands...I said he's got math skills, and i've seen him apply them....But most times he doesn't.....Sometimes this guy just felt like bluffing....And he probably did not put too much stock in the fact that it was 6-way action....When he bet's $1100, most people usually fold....

It seems to me you would advocate waiting until i had the nutz for this guy....I think that strategy will get you killed (and at the very least, is extremly boring /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Ulysses]

If you're folding top set in this spot against this type of opponent, you will lose.

[RDWallace]

Do you really think this guy would raise 900 on top of your bet on a stone cold bluff with that board? When I first read the situation it seemed clear to me that all he could possibly hold was a made straight or straight flush draw, and folding is a safe play against both. Were there more money in the pot, it would be a different story, but in this case you can muck and save your chips for a better situation.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
When I first read the situation it seemed clear to me that all he could possibly hold was a made straight or straight flush draw

[/ QUOTE ]

Everyone who thinks this needs to re-read the post. If you still think this after re-reading it, you need to seriously re-evaluate the way you play against non-straightforward and aggressive opponents.

aggie did a great job describing his opponent. Many of you seem to be completely ignoring all that essential information.

[MagikKid]

Correct as usual.

Magik /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[edtost]

how about a lower set or 2 pair? both are clearly plausable hands, with him wanting to charge draws. he may well need to be bluffing like never for a call to be correct, but it doesn't matter in this instance, because he's on (semi)bluffs a lot of the time.

folding is massively -ev compared to calling. just calling the flop, while not as awful, is still bad.

on those rare occasions these days when diablo decides to post strategy, he tends to be right a lot. i really don't see why this discussion is still occurring.