An ace-high flop

[Nate tha' Great]

Let's say you're playing in your usual game. You have A /images/graemlins/club.gif 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif two off the Button and it's folded to you. You raise. A player who is certainly too aggressive on all streets, but nevertheless could be described as "thinking" and has at least a ballpark feel for your play, 3-bets you from the CO. He'll do this with say ATo/KQo or better, pocket pairs down to 66 or 77, as well as some other suited hands depending on how frisky he's feeling.

Everyone else folds and you call.

The flop is A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

We're all check-calling this, right? That's my usual play.

Anybody like a check-raise?

[DMBFan23]

Nate,

check-call, check-call, bet? is his hand range wide enough that you'd consider yourself more likely to be ahead here, hence the possibility of a C/R?

[TStoneMBD]

i think the best line is check-call the flop and turn and then lead the river.

[thatpfunk]

Check-calling seems pretty standard v. this type of opponent.

Check raising seems to give them too much of an oppurtunity to get away from the hand when you are ahead.

[MaxPower]

The check-call, check-call, bet line seems to be industry standard and it is a good way to play here, but I think it can be used too much to the point of exploitability.

What happens if diamond comes on the turn? Do we want to risk giving a free card to a one card flush draw or gutshot?

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
The check-call, check-call, bet line seems to be industry standard and it is a good way to play here, but I think it can be used too much to the point of exploitability.

What happens if diamond comes on the turn? Do we want to risk giving a free card to a one card flush draw or gutshot?

[/ QUOTE ]

Max,

Yeah, I think you're getting at some of the [ahem, ahem] second-level thinking that I'm trying to initiate here.

If my opponent *expects* me to check-call with a weakish ace, then there certainly are some advantages to check-raising. He may wrongly put me on a hand like a pair of jacks or a flush draw and put in a fair number of bets with a worse hand. I make it harder for him to take a free card with something like KQ. Finally, it may set up some profitable semi-bluffing opportunities on future flops.

I guess what I'm saying is ... I'm usually a big advocate of fastplaying hands out of position against aggressive opponents, and I don't necessarily know why a flopped pair of aces should be an exception. If your opponent is fairly tight, then clearly the more passive, way-ahead/way-behind line has a lot of merit. But I don't know if that's the case against the overaggressive opponents that are abundant in say the Party 15/30 or maybe some higher-level B&M games. FWIW, I do recall Mason saying that the standard play in the Bellagio 80/160 game would be to check-raise in this spot.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
Nate,

check-call, check-call, bet? is his hand range wide enough that you'd consider yourself more likely to be ahead here, hence the possibility of a C/R?

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume that I have the best hand on this flop against the opponent described. He might convince me otherwise, but that's a safe working assumption against the hand range that I've specified.

[MaxPower]

I was thinking along the same lines. A check raise, might really confuse him.

I think there is a big difference between raising 2 off the button and being 3-bet and and raising in EP and being 3-bet.

If you raise in EP with something Like AQs and flop an ace or a Q, the check-call, check-call, bet line makes sense.

If you raise 2 off the button with AQs and get 3-bet, you can be a litle more frisky.

If you use the standard line a little too much, your opponents will value bet the hell out of you and might even raise you on the river with some holdings.

[skp]

The checkcall, checkcall, bet line used to be known to very few players say even a year or two ago. Now, almost evrybody knows it to be the better way to go. I think we can thank(?) Mason's "Hand to talk about" posts for that.

So, I have started to deviate from that line for some of the reasons you have given. Particularly, where the positions are different. Say I am UTG and someone in MP 3 bets preflop. I think you can let loose with a checkraise on the flop or turn and have little fear of having the other guy bail.

[stoxtrader]

I think you are giving too much credit to second level thinking. This line is very strong for a number of reasons. I still think you play this in the standard fashion.

[skp]

You may well be right, Stox.

But if I had a dime for every time I checkraised at some point in the hand when I didn't have an Ace and was still called down by 88 or whatever...

I guess it's not so much giving credit to second line thinking as much as it is a case of "this dude ain't dropping his pair no matter what I do, so why be satisfied with just one bet on each street?"

But yes, there are other reasons for the checkcall twice and bet out line that we haven't touched upon here.

Are you using a different Pary handle these days? I haven't sen you in ages.

[NLSoldier]

I'm pretty sure in the 10/20 6m, Check raising is the standard in this spot, is it not? Maybe its due to the fact that people will 3 bet with just about any two, because hey, its shorthanded!

[bicyclekick]

I'm going into check/call mode cause I think it will get the most EV in the long run. Depending on the player I might bet the river. It will be based on how often he continues bluffs...based on river aggression/won when bet/raised river.

[steveyz]

Yeah, I'd say that a large percentage of the time this guy doesn't have a made hand that he can call a river bet with. So unless he has a habit of bluff raising the river, I like check-calling the river as well.