Is counting worth it

[RedeemerKing]

Right now i am under 21 but love to gamble. I love poker and blackjack. I want to know is it worth it to start to learn how to count. Im just a guy who would do it by myself. No teams and no pipe dreams of takin vegas for 10 million. Is it worth it to learn how to count with the way they cut the deck and the CSMs. will card counting survive or will it be cut out in say 5-10 years. Can a single guy with a modest bet size profit from it. Any thoughts would be appreciated
Thx

[cardcounter0]

Counting is not gambling. If you like to gamble, counting will probably be too much of a grind for you. One of the most important aspects of counting is game selection. If the right conditions aren't there - don't play. Gamblers want action, counters want an advantage.

Will counting survive? I think so. These things move in cycles. Right now, we are at an extreme rip-off the customer cycle. Maybe things will start to swing the other way, and casinos attempt to actually attract players with better games.

Can you profit from counting? Absolutely. You must have the proper bankroll, the discipline to only play properly in the proper games, and the determination to put in the hours required.

[RedeemerKing]

The "grind" isnt a problem. Isnt it easy to spot a counter if you only take insurance sometimes or double 8 V 14 sometimes. How do u balance these out, and wont a the casinos notice that you keep winning (even if you play at different ones. cant they see how you do elsewhere somehow)
I just dont want to devote 2-3 years to learn something that I wont be able to put into practice

[cardcounter0]

Now you are talking about the "game within the game".

1) If you are betting modestly, you have a less chance of getting noticed. If you have idiots betting $100-$500 a hand, they don't care about the guy betting $25 and sometimes betting $50.

2) Keep sessions short - hit and run. Hard for them to figure out what you are doing if you only play for 20 minutes.

3) Move around. Don't sit at one table for hours where you are noticed. Play a shoe at one table, move to a different pit with a different pit boss, and play another.

4) Hit different shifts. Play 20 minutes with the day shift, and then after shift change play another 20. Weekend shift, day shift, night shift. Lots of time in one casino, but never the same faces twice.

5) Have a good act. Be friendly. Be a good customer. Nasty mean people with an attitude get backed off quicker than everybody's friend.

6) Learn some camo. For instance, in the case of Insurance, in some games it is profitable to simply take insurance every time. No eyebrows raised, you always take insurance (the profit comes into the fact that when you should be taking insurance, you are insuring a big bet, when you shouldn't have taken insurance, it is a small bet so no big loss).

Casinos have a tendency to judge a book by it's cover. So learn what they are looking for and do the opposite. If you look like a counter and act like a counter -- you are a counter. If you don't look like a counter and don't act like a counter -- they overlook what you are actually doing and betting.

[Iceman]

[ QUOTE ]
Right now i am under 21 but love to gamble. I love poker and blackjack. I want to know is it worth it to start to learn how to count. Im just a guy who would do it by myself. No teams and no pipe dreams of takin vegas for 10 million. Is it worth it to learn how to count with the way they cut the deck and the CSMs. will card counting survive or will it be cut out in say 5-10 years. Can a single guy with a modest bet size profit from it. Any thoughts would be appreciated
Thx

[/ QUOTE ]

On a small bankroll, it's not really worth it. Unless you have a huge bankroll and have access to great games, it's hardly profitable at all. Most counters only have around a .5% advantage, and in many casinos it wouldn't even be possible to do that. Shuffling machines, bars on midshoe entry, and 6:5 blackjack payouts are becoming more common. Also, blackjack is much less profitable for casinos than other games, so they're trying to promote other games instead and deemphasize blackjack below the $25 minimum level. It's much easier to make money in poker or sports betting than in blackjack, and they're lot more enjoyable than the drudgery of card counting.

[charlie_t_jr]

What cardcounter0 said. I'd only add, that if your top bet is below $100, play optimally. With your expectation, you really can't afford much cover or camo...but like cc says, keep your sessions short.

Also be careful of tipping too much. If you're a red chip player, you could easily tip away your advantage.

I've been doing it for nearly 2 years and have spread $5-50, $10-80 at double deck, and $10-50 at single deck pretty much with no cover, and never had a problem. But maybe that means I've been evaluated as playing a horrible game! /images/graemlins/smirk.gif...but really with small betting and short sessions, you can go pretty much unnoticed.(keep in mind all my experience is in Tunica)

[ QUOTE ]
I just dont want to devote 2-3 years to learn something that I wont be able to put into practice

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand you're still underage and have a couple of years to go, but if you are reasonably intelligent, its only going to take you months, not years to learn a count system.

[cardcounter0]

Oh, yeah. Tips. At the red chip level a $1 tip is $100 worth of bets. Think about it.

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
Counting is not gambling.

[/ QUOTE ]


It isn't?

[cardcounter0]

HaHa - good catch. Of course, it is gambling. But it is not "gambling" in the sense that I am sure the original poster used the word -- let's buy a lottery ticket, throw the dice, spin the wheel type gambling for the thrill.

[MicroBob]

ty for clarifying.
you have me scared for a minute there.

[bholdr]

a buddy gave me a tip that sounds like a good cover tactic; instead of raising his bets as soon as the count was enough in his favor, he'd wait till he got a lucky win- say hit on a 16 and pulled a 4 or 5, for example, and then announce that he was 'gonna let it ride'. (or an unlucky beat, same thing 'i'm gonna get it back'). he'd never lower the bet, he'd take a break after the shoe was done and hit another table later, etc. (i happen to know that he never really made much, but the tactic seems sound)

are these common cover tactics? do they work? usually when i go to a casino, i'm there for fun with freinds, and don't mind paying .39% to the casino, but i'm interested in learning how to count, as a new challenge, but i'd rather not be booted out in front of my buds, and don't to get them in trouble by association.

btw, do they generally throw counters out of the casino, or just say "no more BJ for you, pal."?

[cardcounter0]

Those are sound tatics if you know what you are doing. In a shoe game the count doesn't jump radically so you can ramp up your bet slowly. One common tatic is to merely let it ride (instead of placing a much larger bet that the count would dictate) on wins. Then when the count goes negative, waiting for a loss before reducing bet. It makes you look more like a normal progression bettor that way.

The reason I say "if you know what you are doing" is because you wouldn't want to be hitting your 16 vs T in a positive count in the first place. Increasing your bet after any win and lowering after losses is a natural activity that many poor players use.

You can be giving away more than 20% of your profit potential that way, and you shouldn't have to use it at red chip levels. If you are getting trouble for making bets under $100, you are playing in the wrong place anyways.

Backing off counters varies by casino and the levels you are playing at, and how much you have stung them.

The most common tatic is to say nothing and merely start shuffling very frequently, making the game unplayable.
Next would be the friendly tap on the shoulder to get you away from the table (the casino doesn't want losers to see if you are a winner you can't play) and to be told "no more blackjack and have a nice day".
Some casinos will tell you not to come back when you leave and threaten you with arrest for trespassing, etc. (usually more bark than bite) depends on State Law.
I've had armed security forcibly escort me to the cage to cash out and escorted right out the door.
I've had comps revoked, been kicked out of hotel rooms, banned from properties, told to leave upon merely entering casinos, etc. but these are extreme cases.

For the beginner amatuer, they will probably just stand back and let the Standard Deviation take its toll.
/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[MikeyObviously]

I learned to count single decks just in case I'm ever at a party or something and someone busts out a deck and plays dealer.

[PhatCasino]

after being backed off from two casinos owned by the same company... what can i expect going back in? if i limit my play to 30 mins, i know i won't be spotted. but i really don't want to do that
this is on the red chip level at single deck games

at what point will they trespass you from all of their properties?

thanks

btw, i didn't even win much at all.. the bastards

[Shoe]

[ QUOTE ]
I learned to count single decks just in case I'm ever at a party or something and someone busts out a deck and plays dealer.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is always nice in home games/parties where they deal "casino style" but deal each player's cards face up when using a single deck.

[cardcounter0]

varies by casino and varies by the State they are located in -- also varies by who exactly got you, the pit or the eye.

[PhatCasino]

[ QUOTE ]
varies by casino and varies by the State they are located in -- also varies by who exactly got you, the pit or the eye.

[/ QUOTE ]

well lets say its vegas...
pit got me first via the eye
the eye got me the second time at another casino, same owner

what cha think?

[cardcounter0]

In Vegas, the casino has to ask you to leave before they can grab you for trespassing. If you leave immediately when they ask you to leave, then there is nothing they can do.

So in theory, you could go every day, play until you are told to leave, and then leave. Don't give them lip, and head straight for the door.

Just play at other properties for about 6 months, by that time they will have forgotten all about you, and you can go back without a problem at the original places.

[MicroBob]

a semi-drunken or care-free act is helpful too (and lots of fun).


If you can count while also singing the stupid motown song the band is playing all the while not really looking like you are paying attention to the cards they will be less likely to suspect you of counting.

I also like to mention things like "okay...I've got a hunch and am going to try to take the dealer's bust-card here." or "I'm going to leave the bust-card for you" depending on which way you want to go obviously.


I know that many people can't sing or babble about the NFL or the hot waitress or whatever while counting....but do the best you can.
Every little bit helps.

For some reason i have a special ability for this.

I keep side-count of the aces by my foot position, notice what other value may have come out a lot or a little ("haven't seen any 7's yet....even though the count tells me to stand on my 14 v. 10 right now I know that there are enough 7's left to make a hit the +EV play"), keep a running +/- count and mumble the words to 'set me free, why don't you babe' while sipping my gin-and-tonic.

I think it's kind of a special gift though.


you also need to be aware of when the floor is watching you.
After you raise and lower your bet a few times someone is bound to start watching you from somewhere. If you feel some eyes on you then go ahead and make a cover-play.


That's what learning some fo the side-counts can be good for...because the floor isn't going to know that you split your 3's against a T because you're almost at the end of the double-deck and have hardly seen any 8's or 9's.

They'll see it as a play they don't recognize and think you're a moron.
I'll do something like this every time I think it's reasonably close to even-EV....
even if they are sure that I'm counting (because they saw me take insurance on my 13 with a really big bet up there) they'll just think I'm a really bad counter who can't possibly know what I'm doing.


anyway, these are some more advanced plays obviously. But I've found them to be VERY helpful for turing the casino's attention away from you.
Some of my views weren't very well accepted over at BJ21.com though back in the day.
Stanford Wong insists that the EV gain of side-counts (including aces side-counts) isn't worth the effort.