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View Full Version : Common situation: missed flop w/ overs, someone raises

randomfish
02-08-2005, 12:42 PM
I find myself in this spot over and over again, and I'm always unsure of my decision.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif. CO posts a blind of $1.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO (poster) calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls.

<font color="blue">Somewhat dubious raise, perhaps (Ed Miller says raise from MP, call from EP), but table was basically a bunch of rocks and two fish; I figured the rocks would fold and the fish would coldcall with many worse hands.</font>

Flop: (6.50 SB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, BB folds, Hero...?

<font color="blue">In this hand, CO just sat down and called my raise half in. Call and check-fold the turn?

Does your plan change if

a) CO is a TAG? (20/8/2)
b) CO is a LAG? (40/12/3)
c) You have AK instead of KJ?
d) You have no backdoor draws?
e) Anything else you might come up with /images/graemlins/smile.gif</font>
VTDuffman
02-08-2005, 12:51 PM
You have to call this, I probably wouldn't three bet. You have one overcard, a backdoor flush draw, and a backdoor str8 draw. Lets call and see what comes on the turn, many, many cards can help us - any /images/graemlins/heart.gif, a K, a T, or even an A. I want to see that next card. Villan could have anything.

a) I'd do the same thing against a TAG
b) I might 3-bet a LAG, he could have nothing at all
c) AK /images/graemlins/heart.gif probably wouldn't change me much, I might consider raising.
d) The backdoor draws are what make this hand call-worthy. I'd consider folding with no backdoor draws and only 1 overcard.
QTip
02-08-2005, 12:54 PM
In my understanding one of the biggest reasons you limp EP with KJs (Big Suited Broadways Category) is to encourage multiway action. You don't want folders. You want callers.

The pot is not that large here (although it's not that small either), so we have to keep that in mind. I think pot size is the biggest thing you're missing in your list of things to consider and how your plan changes. It looks like you would have maybe 4 outs.

Backdoor straight - 1.5
Backdoor flush - 1.5
1 Overcard - probably one worth 1 here depending on the PFA of your flop raiser here.

With your flop call you'd be at 10.5/1 pot odds. Worth a call. If no improvement on the turn, check/fold.

That's my line.
mmbt0ne
02-08-2005, 01:00 PM
Against an 2 players including an unknown where you have no idea about his fold equity you should be check-calling here I think. Given that you bet, call and fold the turn UI.
GrunchCan
02-08-2005, 01:28 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I find myself in this spot over and over again

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but table was basically a bunch of rocks

[/ QUOTE ]

Table selection might be a problem for you if this situation arises frequently.
randomfish
02-08-2005, 02:05 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I find myself in this spot over and over again

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but table was basically a bunch of rocks

[/ QUOTE ]

Table selection might be a problem for you if this situation arises frequently.

[/ QUOTE ]

Being in Europe, time zone differences makes finding those 40+ VPIP tables hard to find.
dinero2433
02-08-2005, 04:00 PM
I think If I had AKs, this would be an easy call - with KJs, It's somewhat more difficult. The backdoor flush counts as one out, and the remaining kings give you three more. The backdoor straight I'll count as a half out, since the ace makes it a gutshot draw instead of an OESD. You're getting 9:1 here with 4.5 outs... This might justify a call, but you'll ne to improve on the turn, obviously.