just a ruling question

[YEM20]

This happened to me at the Taj 5-10 last weekend. The floor was not called over, as I convinced the table I was right. But was I?

I post the BB. Waitress hands me my coffee, I give her $1. I look down and see 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif . Forgetting that I am the BB, I toss my cards to the dealer. UTG folds, but as he is folding, the dealer and I look at eachother and realize what I had done almost at the same time. UTG's cards are in the dealers right hand, mine are still in the "muck area". Do I get 'em back?

[TiK]

If your hand hits the muck, it's a dead hand.

[juanez]

This is close call here. There are no other mucked cards, so your cards didn't "hit" other mucked cards.

Did the dealer touch your cards at all? If so, I would say that your hand is dead. If you tossed them in the dealers direction but grabbed them before he touched them, I would probably say that your hand is still live.

[junkmail3]

Why would you want to fold 83?

[YEM20]

This was just my point.....THERE WAS NO MUCK! I generally give my cards a good "toss" meaning I throw them all the way to the left side of the dealer box, usually landing them directly in the muck. I did the same thing here, only there were no cards there. I was in the 7 seat, so it was a long throw. I do not know if the dealer actually touched them, would that matter?

[DeuceKicker]

Since there was action to your left, I don't think you can get those cards back. It may be a bit nit-picky (as is a hard and fast, "if one molecule of one of your cards touches one molecule of a card in the muck, then your hand is not retrievable") but combine the facts that your cards hit/became the muck pile, you now have knowledge of what someone behind you has done, not to mention that we're talking about 8-frickin-3 here, and I'd let the hand die its natural death. Sucks if the flop came 833 or something.

[stabn]

[ QUOTE ]

you now have knowledge of what someone behind you has done


[/ QUOTE ]

The same knowledge he would have, say, before it got to him anyway since he was in the BB? I think this is one of those, "technically it's probably dead" times. Yes, he mucked, but he's in the bb, we know which cards are his lets return them to him. All that really happened is that people acting after him now know he has a hand he wants to fold so whoever enters the pot first has a little bit insentive for raising /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

If you want to be a nit stickler fold his hand, but it's also perfectly fair to everyone at the table to return his cards.

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

I say you folded them and you don't get them back. Move on - you weren't going to win anyway.

[Randy_Refeld]

In the interest of fairness the big blind can ahve his hand back. He paid a blind and there is no doubt about which cards are his. There has been no action behind him (to his left) all the players are to the big blinds right (the UTG is furthest to his right). Even though there was no muck pile here a hand is generally NOT automatically dead for touching the muck; the more comon rule is it is fouled for touching the muck and the floor MAY rule it dead.

Randy Refeld