Profitability of Omaha Hi only v. Omaha8b

[cielo]

Quick question.

I've been playing .5/1 and 1/2 O8B at Party for a short while (about 4 months) instead of hold'em. I really like the game because of the increased certainty I have of when my hand is best, behind or beaten (sorry for the alliteration). So, I was talking to a friend who introduced me to hold'em and he was dissapointed that I only get 1/2 of the pot (usually).

This got me thinking, assuming I could play as well at Omaha Hi only, isn't it more profitable to play the high only game, assuming the average pot size is the same?


thanks

cielo

[__Q__]

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assuming the average pot size is the same?

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I think thats the problem. I would guess that O8b pots tend to be a bit bigger. In high only, people are only chasing after high hands. The low gives people more reasons to talk themselves into playing the hand. Though, I really don't know what the avg pot size difference is between the games.

I also think that many O8 players don't understand importance of playing for both the high and low end of the pot. The understanding of this alone gives skilled O8 players a huge advantage.

My guess is that O8 would prove to be more profitable to the skilled player.

[johnnybeef]

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he was dissapointed that I only get 1/2 of the pot (usually).


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this statement proves to me that you are unfamiliar with the proper strategy of the game. the goal in omaha 8 (or any split pot game) is to win the whole pot. i reccomend you check out ray zees book and super system 2.


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assuming I could play as well at Omaha Hi only, isn't it more profitable to play the high only game, assuming the average pot size is the same?


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in my opinion...no. at the lower limits omaha 8 has more profit potential then any other limit game. this is due to several things...1. omaha attracts "action junkies" due to the large pots. 2. many people are learning how to play holdem (somewhat) correctly. 3. more than any other game, people think that they know how to play the game when in fact they don't.


that being said since you are somewhat new to the game i will leave you with three tips that should fare thee well.

1. preflop: only play hands that have the ability to scoop the pot. furthermore, before you play a hand ask yourself what has to bappen in order for your hand to be good for both the high and low.

2. ONLY draw to the nuts.

3. NEVER draw to half the pot

and ill throw in one more for good measure...

4. NEVER play middle cards 6,7,8,9,10s

hope this helps

johnny

[Iceman]

If both games are very loose, Omaha-8 will be more profitable, but you're more likely to find a very loose Omaha high game online than a very loose Omaha-8 game. Omaha-8 attracts a lot of rocks who just play premium hands and grind out a small profit against the suckers who just play anything, so you rarely have more than a few fish in the game. (caveat: I only play 3-6 and higher, so I don't know about lower limit games.) Some Omaha high games are almost all fish, even at limits like 5-10.

[benfranklin]

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This got me thinking, assuming I could play as well at Omaha Hi only, isn't it more profitable to play the high only game, assuming the average pot size is the same?



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Some observations:

1. O/8 and Omaha are two different games. What works at one doesn't work at the other. Based on what you said, you probably won't do as well at Omaha as you are doing at O/8, at least initially.

2. Mike Cappelletti points out that expert O/8 players have a very small edge over good players, but good players have a big edge over bad players. At Omaha, expert players have a big edge over good players.

3. O/8 has a much smaller variance than HE or Omaha. You need a smaller bankroll, and will have smaller swings. The split pots will generally keep you even, and the scoops will make you money.

4. The split pots attact the fish. Lots of action, and lots of small pots being pushed their way. It doesn't sink in that they are barely breaking even on small split pots, and losing money when they jam the nut low and get quartered.

5. O/8 is primarily a game of hand evaluation. Bad players usually evaluate an O/8 hand based on HE experience, and find any four cards have some knid of potential to make a hand one way or the other (usually low). They play more hands here than in HE, when they should be playing fewer.

[benfranklin]

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Omaha-8 attracts a lot of rocks who just play premium hands and grind out a small profit against the suckers who just play anything, so you rarely have more than a few fish in the game. (caveat: I only play 3-6 and higher, so I don't know about lower limit games.) Some Omaha high games are almost all fish, even at limits like 5-10.

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Low limit O/8 games at Party (.50/1 and 1/2) are very loose. Typically 5-6 players seeing every flop. I just sit at any table and keep track for one orbit. If four or fewer are seeing the average flop, I bail out, because I know I can find a better game.

[cielo]

Thank you Johnny.

Your post has been very enlightening.
I assumed that because I was showing a profit, I knew what I was doing.

I suppose to somewhat judge my level of playing, based on your 4 points, I...

1. Play too many hands pre-flop. Is it too loose to play A29Q no suited from the button w/ 5+ limpers?

2. This is a point that I did pick up very early in O8.

3. This rule I violate frequently. My question, would you reccomend that I not do this even if it is +EV?

4. I usually avoid hands that have more than 1 of these cards. My question is why these cards? Is it because they (the 6,7 and 8) can't make the wheel for the low and (i guess) can't make a good enough str.??? or that if you hit them for say a set or 2 pair, it is that much more likely that there will be a low (at least for 6,7 and 8)?


Thank you again for your insights, I need to read a book.

[Beavis68]

In my opinion you should always play A2 in these loose games, even if you do get quartered you will see a profit.

[djr]

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4. I usually avoid hands that have more than 1 of these cards. My question is why these cards? Is it because they (the 6,7 and 8) can't make the wheel for the low and (i guess) can't make a good enough str.??? or that if you hit them for say a set or 2 pair, it is that much more likely that there will be a low (at least for 6,7 and 8)?


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When they make a nut straight, there's a low out. THus you split the pot more often than not. When you play hands with virtually no low value you want to hit the nut high and have no low.

[djr]

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3. NEVER draw to half the pot


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really? So with 5+ seeing the flop you wouldn't draw to a low with an A23 on a 87Q board? Drawing to half the pot is not as profitable as scooping, but it still tends to have a +EV if it can be done cheaply.

Never say Never

[benfranklin]

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When you play hands with virtually no low value you want to hit the nut high and have no low.

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Also, if you hit the nut high on the flop, or a very good draw to it, especially with 2 high cards on the board, you can jam the pot to drive out the low draws.

[Al P]

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4. The split pots attact the fish. Lots of action, and lots of small pots being pushed their way. It doesn't sink in that they are barely breaking even on small split pots, and losing money when they jam the nut low and get quartered.


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If you get quartered with 3 people who cap on every street you only lose 3BB. Add in 2-3 extra players (as is common at LL o/8) and remove the capping on every street (which is rare in o/8) and you figure out that you just about break even on being quartered. Add in those freakish times when your A2 wins low and your pair of 4's wins high to get you 3/4ths and it's ALWAYS worth pushing lows in these games.

[djr]

it's rare to get enough people on the turn/river (unless you're talking micro-limits) to make pushing only the low worth it. Remember there is the chance of being counterfeited as well. I can see pushing the nut low (with no high) on the river in the right situation, but will rarely do so on the turn without some other reason.

[johnnybeef]

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3. NEVER draw to half the pot


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really? So with 5+ seeing the flop you wouldn't draw to a low with an A23 on a 87Q board? Drawing to half the pot is not as profitable as scooping, but it still tends to have a +EV if it can be done cheaply.

Never say Never

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while i agree in this situation...for a beginner it would be better to avoid doing this until they have some experience

[Cornell Fiji]

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In my opinion you should always play A2 in these loose games, even if you do get quartered you will see a profit.

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I think that this is really bad advice.

Drawing to half the pot is almost always wrong and because so many fish will play any A2 you are often drawing for 1/4 of the pot which is a disaster.

Also when you flop a low without a redraw (for the high or low) you will lose a lot of money when counterfitted

[3rdEye]

I would think that O8 is more profitable, simply because: 1) it's looser; 2) it's probably easier to judge where you're at than in Omaha high; and 3) the skill level is probably lower overall than Omaha high.

[3rdEye]

[ QUOTE ]
Thank you Johnny.

Your post has been very enlightening.
I assumed that because I was showing a profit, I knew what I was doing.

I suppose to somewhat judge my level of playing, based on your 4 points, I...

1. Play too many hands pre-flop. Is it too loose to play A29Q no suited from the button w/ 5+ limpers?



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God no. In fact, you could easily play A3xx from late position for one bet after 5 limpers. Indeed, I'd argue that you SHOULD play that hand under these circumstances (but I'm a relative O8 newb).

[BradleyT]

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it's rare to get enough people on the turn/river (unless you're talking micro-limits) to make pushing only the low worth it. Remember there is the chance of being counterfeited as well. I can see pushing the nut low (with no high) on the river in the right situation, but will rarely do so on the turn without some other reason.

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Even at $3-6 on paradise you'll still have 4+ people in on the turn. $2-$4 party players are just as bad as the $.50/$1 players except there's only 3 total morons per table not 5-6.

[Matt Ruff]

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In my opinion you should always play A2 in these loose games, even if you do get quartered you will see a profit.

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I think that this is really bad advice.

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In a loose 0/8 game with 5 or more players per hand, you're leaving money on the table if you don't play A2xx. A3xx is almost always worth seeing a cheap flop with as well.

-- M. Ruff

[gergery]

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In my opinion you should always play A2 in these loose games, even if you do get quartered you will see a profit.

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I think that this is really bad advice.

Drawing to half the pot is almost always wrong and because so many fish will play any A2 you are often drawing for 1/4 of the pot which is a disaster.

Also when you flop a low without a redraw (for the high or low) you will lose a lot of money when counterfitted

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Cornell gives great advice in the NL forums but i'm going to disagree with the above.

In the loose games at Party I think playing any A2 is profitable, provided you can use some good judgment on the flop (which may not be possible for a beginner who has not read an O8 book).

Drawing to half the pot is usually wrong, but mainly it depends on what it costs to call, how big the pot is, and whether hitting your hand truly gives you 50% or might get quartered to give you 25%, and the chances that redraws will overtake you.

Getting quartered is not a big deal (unless heads up). Most of the time in loose games getting quartered is roughly EV neutral or slightly negative.

[stone_7]

I disagree with everyone her in that I think hi only is more profitable. While some of this may be due to my lack of skill in hi lo I think that the pots are the same size and never split (except ties). If you want to make some serious money check out the 1/2 6 max at party. They are always available unlike the full ring games at that level and sometimes have higher avg pots. As long as you are selectively aggressive you should do fine there. Also multitabling hi only seems easier to me than multitabling hi and lo. There is less to think about.