online skill level Vs. B&M skill level

i don't play B&M, but wouldn't mind giving it a try, i've been a sucessful lower limit online player (upto 3-6 or so on paradise) and just wondered what people thought this equated to, skillwise in a b&m cardroom. i've heard that the paradise 3-6 game is a much tighter and tougher game then a live 3-6 game, but i was just curious what general level of live game would equal the paradise 3-6 game in LIMIT HOLDEM. ie, could my skills be able to beat a typical 10-20 game if i can consistantly beat the 3-6 paradise game? all this assuming i could keep a good table image, ie, not giving away tells.

my guess would be 5-10 and 6-12 games. try those first and if you feel they are quite beatable then move up to bigger games.

assuming i could keep a good table image, ie, not giving away tells.


Your table image and giving away tells should be somewhat far down on the list of important factors in beating B&M 10-20.


I don't play online. However, bernie (a knowledgeable small stakes poster/player) has played B&M and online and has the opposite opinion about online/B&M games. He has said that the online games are no tougher to beat than B&M games.


Based on my observations of online games, I don't see why people believe they are tough, especially at the micro-limits. I looked on Paradise as I was writing this post. The flop percentages for the two full 3-6 games were 40% and 36%. The average pot was 6 big bets. That's a sign of multi-way pots with very little raising. That's doesn't appear to be a tough game to me.

..is that there are too many savvy players who are looking for the soft games. When there's a game with 35% or more seeing the flop, there's almost always a huge waiting list, and you'll see the % drop like a rock as the fish leave and get replaced. The games with short lists are usually in the 20-25% range.


However, there are plenty of beatable games online at other sites. It's hard to make a blanket statement about B&M vs. online because there is such a wide variety in both. Online does have one huge advantage, though: it takes a minute to log off and log onto another site to find a good game.

Go play B&M Low Limit and you will commonly see 6-8 players at the flop. 40% at the flop would be unusually tight in B&M. ALthough, I should preface my statement since that most of my experience is on Riverboats. They may be the loosest - Im not sure.

I play on-line about 98% of the time, so I never really considered my table image - but when I get into a live game and I get AA or KK I jump up and down and yell YES YES YES just like in the living room...)- only one person sees the flop with me - if any. Also, when my I yell cmon 10, cmon 10 and the ten comes on the river - NO ONE PAYS ME OFF!!!! It sucks - I hate live poker. Do you think I am giving off any unnecessary tells and ruining my table image? - I mean - I wear headphones and sunglasses for goodness sakes!


Thanks for the feedback

...until I gave up live poker for good. I might play again if I can find a floorman who will let me play in my underwear.

I don't know what Vegas is like right now, but everytime I've been there virtually all the mid-limit games (at least 20-40 and smaller) have had more than 3.5 players seeing each flop.


If you can beat the 3-6 on Paradise you can beat any 10-20 I've ever played in.

I've been playing at the trop and taj, and have had no problems beating those games for over a big bet per hour for over 100 hours. I know this may be a fluke, but I really think I have a good command over those games.


Yet, I can't seem to beat the micro-limits online. I refuse to move up from micro-limits until I can beat the games, and I don't know if I ever will. Lost $250 on paradise in under 100 hours(.5 - 1.00) and stopped playing there. I have lost about $50.00 on another site in the .25-.50 game after several 100 hours.


Now, I think that the hundreds of hours I put in online has sharpened my live game alot, but I still can't seem to beat the games... My theories...


1)Skill level, I think the skill level online is much better for several reasons. On top of people on the net usually being better read, you have people playing several games at once, being total rocks.


2)Not being able to read people. Many times online I do not make associations with people that I do in real life.


3)Collusion/Cheating. I hate to even bring this up, but sometimes I suspect this heavily. It seems like I see a certain pattern every so often. A pretty passive game all of a sudden becomes ram/jam and someone who is doing a lot of raising pre-flop and on the flop drags a pot with runner-runner miracle. I am not making accusations, I just wonder why sometimes it seems like I have such a great handle on B&M games, and can't seem to get ahead in the micro limits.


-J

3)Collusion/Cheating.


How much do you think you can win colluding at the micro-limits?

if i am sitting in "seat six" in a home game, when it's my deal i start dealing to the guy in "seat 1" first

I dont think people do it to make a ton of money, I just get the felling that friends do it while bsing on the phone. I would imagine that it would be quite fun.


-J

Those numbers are infrequent for PP 3-6 and rare for 5-10 and above. For middle limits, the averages are something like the low 20's with a pot size of around 6 BB, which is fairly tight and fairly aggressive compared to B&M ML.


In one sense, the games are easier because it's almost as if there were more walk-ins, completely outclassed players that make bad and even bizarre plays, even in the middle limits. But their table life seems to be shorter, and they're a bit harder to spot if you don't know them.

Yeah, I agree, I play PP all the time. At 3/6 and lower it is much easier to beat than B&M card rooms. Part of the reason is there are way more total idiots on the internet than in live games. Another part is that the rake is low, and you don't have to tip.

I recommend you move up. I don't know because I have only played 2/4, 3/6, and 5/10 online, but I find the 2/4 and 3/6 really easy to beat. It seems to get much tougher at 5/10. The lower you go, the wilder, stupider people seem to play. Maybe you have just had bad luck at low levels. People definatly seem to play more reasonably at the higher limits.

granted I've never played higher than 3-6 online but the people are definitely just as bad there (and below) as they are in B&M casinos. I find 10-20 B&M players to be more aggressive and less predictable than low limit online players, plus you'll run into a good player or two at 10-20, so I woulnd't agree with your estimate. One thing I'll say for online poker, the low limit stud games are way tighter than they are in B&M casinos.